Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

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Jered
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Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby Jered » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:14 am

San Francisco PD

65 shots. 15 seconds.

No hits.

Derp.
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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby Rich Jordan » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:50 am

Damn lucky since they were shooting into an RV from all angles including up... wonder how many went through and traveled on they knew not where. Nor care, I suppose...

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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby Langenator » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:10 pm

Suppressive fire is a perfectly valid TTP. For the infantry.

Much less so for police.

I understand returning fire. But you need to have the (self) control to only shoot if you can positively ID the target. (I'm OK with shooting through concealment, IF the concealment is small enough that you can be reasonably sure the target is behind it. An entire RV does not meet this standard.)
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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby Rod » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:24 pm

If you watch the video, it looks like a scene from a Naked Gun movie.
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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby Langenator » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:24 pm

That was a tactical goat screw. If you asked the officers who fired, I doubt any of them could honestly say that saw the bad guy at the time they were shooting. And they darn well should have been asked by now, by whatever body has the job of reviewing shootings by officers.

It looked and sounded to me like bad guy popped off two rounds, then one cop shot back, or at least shot at the RV in general, and then a bunch of the other cops joined in panicked reactive fire.

Questions for SFPD:

- You knew the bad guy was armed, and had already shot two people. Why are so many cops standing around with no cover/concealment from the BG in the RV? All of the cops trying to run behind that SUV is the source of half of the goat fornicating right there.

- The scene commander should have assigned roles to officers on scene. Larry, Curly, and Moe - you're dealing with the people coming out of the RV. Bob, you cover the back window. Doug, you cover the windows on this side. Etc.

- On yeah - What happened to "Know your target, and what's beyond it?"
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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby evan price » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:27 pm

Langenator wrote:
- On yeah - What happened to "Know your target, and what's beyond it?"


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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby Vonz90 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:14 am

They are shooting in the general direction of an actual bad guy, all good compared to a lot of other cases recently.

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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby Mike OTDP » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:04 am

There's a case to be made for issuing the police single-action revolvers. Maybe swing-out cylinder guns, but modified to SAO. Simply to force them to aim.

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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby Termite » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:52 am

Mike OTDP wrote:There's a case to be made for issuing the police single-action revolvers. Maybe swing-out cylinder guns, but modified to SAO. Simply to force them to aim.


Even with today's modern "high speed - low drag" auto pistols, I still recommend the S&W K frame .38/.357 to most people who are buying their first handgun.
It's dirt simple, and utterly reliable.

There's a lot of police officers who probably don't need anything more complicated either......... :roll:
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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby MarkD » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:32 pm

I recall when NYPD transitioned from revolvers to autos the number of shots fired per incident doubled but the number of hits remained the same.

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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby g-man » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:17 pm

MarkD wrote:I recall when NYPD transitioned from revolvers to autos the number of shots fired per incident doubled but the number of hits remained the same.


Which would be statistical proof that magazine capacity doesn't matter as it regards lethality in mass shooting incidents, provided by the beancounters of the 'only ones' themselves. But that doesn't fit the narrative, and therefore doesn't warrant publication...

ETA:

I'd be interested to find out if there's a count of the number of rounds that hit the entire RV, as sort of a 'how many shots does it take to hit the broadside of a barn' analog.
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Re: Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise

Postby MarkD » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:44 pm

g-man wrote:
MarkD wrote:I recall when NYPD transitioned from revolvers to autos the number of shots fired per incident doubled but the number of hits remained the same.


Which would be statistical proof that magazine capacity doesn't matter as it regards lethality in mass shooting incidents, provided by the beancounters of the 'only ones' themselves. But that doesn't fit the narrative, and therefore doesn't warrant publication...

ETA:

I'd be interested to find out if there's a count of the number of rounds that hit the entire RV, as sort of a 'how many shots does it take to hit the broadside of a barn' analog.


I've mentioned this before but it's always good to repeat.

I knew someone once (HTRN knew him too) who was a transit cop before the transit and housing police were rolled into the NYPD. A couple officers (Leutenant IIRC) were evaluating the new auto pistol to determine if they should replace the current revolvers. (As an aside NYPD regs specified that the revolver MUST be DAO from S&W, Colt or Ruger, fixed sights and chambered in 38 Spl.). These two officers encountered someone on a subway platform who needed shooting, so they did so. At a range of 15 feet they flinched so badly the bullets were hitting the concrete floor, fragmenting, and peppering the perps jeans with bits of copper and lead.

The takaway was that the 9mm was not suitable for Transit use since it couldn't penetrate denim, so they ought to stick with the 38. Umm guys, maybe if you got them there on the fly instead of bouncing them.....


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