Ukraine invasion

[D5CAV]

...if we are stupid enough to fund research in China that question sort of answers itself.

Not stupid...evil.

The pocket-change contracts listed above, and the few pocket-change contracts that are paraded around the alt.right media from NIH to WIV with Tony Fauci's signature are just the tip of the iceberg. That's the seed money they can hide as "humanitarian studies". What you don't see are the USD billions of "black money" coming out of "black pools" in NSA and CIA.

Why do we do this?

Because having bio labs in places like Maryland and Connecticut have unfortunate impacts when "whoopsies" occur. Not that they really care about the victims, but the scrutiny of "WTF" are you doing?" once people start to ask questions about the "whoopsies" is what they want to avoid.

Once that scrutiny starts, even if the money is coming from untraceable "black pools" it's harder to hide since FOIA can disclose number of employees, who is employed, how much they are paid, what stuff they are buying from local contractors, etc.

If it's done in Ukraine and China, it's easier to hide, unless someone like Vlad gets hold of the records. Which starts to explain the hysteria around Vlad's "humanitarian intervention" in Ukraine, while all I heard was crickets regarding Vlad's "humanitarian intervention" in Kazakhstan a few months earlier.

[D5CAV]

Picking friends: https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-new ... 0b69b7aeee

Somehow us.gov manages to pick really bad actors as allies: Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, ISIS in Syria... Now we picked the Azovs in Ukraine.

Video has surfaced showing what appear to be Ukrainian soldiers shooting men who are apparently Russian prisoners in the knees during an operation in the Kharkiv region.

On the almost six-minute-long video, the Ukrainian soldiers are heard saying they have captured a Russian reconnaissance group operating from Olkhovka, a settlement in Kharkiv roughly 20 miles from the Russian border.

Regardless of your politics, as a soldier, this is disgusting.

Some of the prisoners were stripped and blindfolded.

That video was posted by Konstantin Nemichev, a Kharkiv regional official who took part in the attack on Olkhovka. He told CNN he was not associated with the footage that emerged showing Ukrainian troops kneecapping Russian prisoners.

“This is not our location … I have not seen such a location,” he told CNN on Sunday.

He suggested the video was shot “maybe somewhere in the [Kharkiv] region.”

Yeah, Russia is not happy:

In the first response from Russian authorities, the chairman of the investigative committee of the Russian Federation, A.I. Bastrykin, said an investigation would be launched "to establish all the circumstances of the ill-treatment of captured soldiers by Ukrainian nationalists."

In a statement, Bastrykin said: "Footage appeared on the Internet in which prisoners were treated with extreme cruelty by Ukrainian nationalists. The video circulating online shows captured soldiers, being shot in both legs and not given medical assistance. According to some reports, illegal actions took place at one of the bases of the Ukrainian nationalists in Kharkiv region."

By the way, for all the people calling Vlad a "war criminal", this clearly meets the definition of a war crime.

Thanks to Hollywood, most Americans think of Yahtzees as anti-Jewish. In Russia, Yahtzee is seen as anti-Russian. The Ukraine Azovs clearly state that their use of Yahtzee philosophy and symbols is anti-Russian, not anti-Jewish.

That's why you don't hear the ADL, which sees a Yahtzee in anyone who wears a Jerusalem Cross, denouncing the Ukraine Azovs with all their Yahtzee regalia, banners, symbols and methods.

As they say, "Politics makes strange bedfellows".

[Netpackrat]

Picking friends: https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-new ... 0b69b7aeee

Somehow us.gov manages to pick really bad actors as allies: Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, ISIS in Syria... Now we picked the Azovs in Ukraine.

Video has surfaced showing what appear to be Ukrainian soldiers shooting men who are apparently Russian prisoners in the knees during an operation in the Kharkiv region.

On the almost six-minute-long video, the Ukrainian soldiers are heard saying they have captured a Russian reconnaissance group operating from Olkhovka, a settlement in Kharkiv roughly 20 miles from the Russian border.

Regardless of your politics, as a soldier, this is disgusting.

Your real problem here is that you are looking at it from the point of view of somebody who trained with the expectation that if you went to war, you would be doing it in somebody else's country, and that any loved ones you might have would be safe at home in the US. The Ukrainians have had their home invaded and their civilians murdered. If the Russians win, the Ukrainians have only genocide and oppression to look forward to under the Russian boot for who knows how many more centuries? I would do the same fucking thing in their shoes.

And what are they supposed to do with prisoners in the first place? Ukraine is in a fight for its existence and has no resources with which to feed or imprison them, and they can't just let them go to be re-equipped; they would just have to fight the same Russians all over again.

Edit to add: I missed the fact on the first read-through that they were only shooting them in the legs. I would have shot them in the head and been done with it.

[D5CAV]

Your real problem here is that you are looking at it from the point of view of somebody who trained with the expectation that if you went to war, you would be doing it in somebody else's country, and that any loved ones you might have would be safe at home in the US. The Ukrainians have had their home invaded and their civilians murdered. If the Russians win, the Ukrainians have only genocide and oppression to look forward to under the Russian boot for who knows how many more centuries? I would do the same fucking thing in their shoes.

And what are they supposed to do with prisoners in the first place? Ukraine is in a fight for its existence and has no resources with which to feed or imprison them, and they can't just let them go to be re-equipped; they would just have to fight the same Russians all over again.

Edit to add: I missed the fact on the first read-through that they were only shooting them in the legs. I would have shot them in the head and been done with it.

Besides the moral issues around defending obvious criminal actions by really bad actors, as bad as anything that ISIS or Al Qaeda ever did, your problem is that you don't understand the reason we take prisoners and why we try to get the message out we treat prisoners humanely.

The best way to fight a war is to get the enemy to surrender. If the enemy knows they will get tortured and killed if they surrender, guess what happens?

You get a bunch of "heroic" enemy soldiers who will fight to the death.

Go back to our own history with the Republic of Texas. Santa Ana was dealing with "traitors" who had sworn allegiance to the Estados Unidos Mexico. He famously flew the "no quarter" flag at both Goliad and The Alamo, and he made sure everyone knew he meant it.

Any "men" over 12 years old were taken out and shot after Goliad surrendered. After the Alamo surrendered, all the defenders were executed, some by shooting, some by bayonet.

Sam Houston had a hard time getting recruits to deal with a political issue 1000 miles away in Mexico City. That changed after Goliad and the Alamo. Texans started coming from all corners of Texas.

By the time of the battle of San Jacinto, Houston was still badly outnumbered in men and firepower, but his men knew there was no surrender. Santa Ana clearly demonstrated that.

Houston had Def Smith demolish Vince's bridge. That did two things. It took away any possibility of retreat for Santa Ana, but also took away any avenue of escape for his men. Right before the battle began, Def Smith rode through Houston's ranks shouting "Vince's Bridge is down!". Everyone knew there was no retreat. Everyone knew there was no surrender. Everyone had friends or family who were at Goliad or the Alamo.

Yeah, that "no prisoners" didn't work out well for Santa Ana. It worked out even worse for most of his men.

[Netpackrat]

The best way to fight a war is to get the enemy to surrender. If the enemy knows they will get tortured and killed if they surrender, guess what happens?

The fact that you think Russia might actually surrender to Ukraine is even more astounding than some of the other tinfoil hat shit that you have been posting. Ukraine's ONLY chance is to keep holding on in the hope that Putin's own people will eventually depose him. I would ask again, what are they supposed to do with Russian prisoners? They don't have men to spare to guard them, food to spare to feed them, and I doubt very much they can house them. They are too much of a risk to be left behind the lines with an inadequate force guarding them, they can't send them back to their own lines for the same reason, and no other nation is going to be willing to take them into custody.

A better example than Texas (where it was the invaders, and not the defenders who first executed prisoners), would be the Winter War where (once again) the Russians (in their Soviet guise) invaded a smaller, weaker neighbor, with much the same goals... Outright conquest, or at least to install a puppet government. Out of the hundreds of thousands of Soviet casualties, the Finns took fewer than 6000 prisoners. I don't think anyone believes that's because no more than that tried to surrender. The Finns' backs were against the wall, and they did what they had to do. And out of all the countries either invaded or overrun by the Soviet Union during WWII, only the Finns retained their independence.

[Vonz90]

The best way to fight a war is to get the enemy to surrender. If the enemy knows they will get tortured and killed if they surrender, guess what happens?

The fact that you think Russia might actually surrender to Ukraine is even more astounding than some of the other tinfoil hat shit that you have been posting. Ukraine's ONLY chance is to keep holding on in the hope that Putin's own people will eventually depose him. I would ask again, what are they supposed to do with Russian prisoners? They don't have men to spare to guard them, food to spare to feed them, and I doubt very much they can house them. They are too much of a risk to be left behind the lines with an inadequate force guarding them, they can't send them back to their own lines for the same reason, and no other nation is going to be willing to take them into custody.

A better example than Texas (where it was the invaders, and not the defenders who first executed prisoners), would be the Winter War where (once again) the Russians (in their Soviet guise) invaded a smaller, weaker neighbor, with much the same goals... Outright conquest, or at least to install a puppet government. Out of the hundreds of thousands of Soviet casualties, the Finns took fewer than 6000 prisoners. I don't think anyone believes that's because no more than that tried to surrender. The Finns' backs were against the wall, and they did what they had to do. And out of all the countries either invaded or overrun by the Soviet Union during WWII, only the Finns retained their independence.

You take prisoners because you don't want the enemy fighting to the death. It is good policy usually.

The problem is that on a deck plate level, a lot of soldiers and sometimes officers don't get the message. You want to know who killed a lot of POWs in WW2, we did. It is a matter of fact. It was especially bad in the Pacific but in Europe a lot too.

It is not good but it unfortunately common.

[HTRN]

I would have shot them in the head and been done with it.

Its the "cold equations" again. Wounded soldiers consume more enemy resources than dead ones.

[D5CAV]

The fact that you think Russia might actually surrender to Ukraine is even more astounding than some of the other tinfoil hat shit that you have been posting.

I never said I thought Russia would surrender to Ukraine.

I said the treatment of prisoners of war by Ukraine is criminal, disgusting, and reprehensible.

Lots of examples in history of similar actions by other groups, both with and without the regalia of Ukraine Azovs.

I think they are all reprehensible, whether committed by ISIS, Yahtzees, Japan, USSR or USA.

If you believe war crimes are acceptable because it's your team, I have no more words.

[D5CAV]

... the other tinfoil hat shit that you have been posting.

Give some examples, tell me which of the facts I cite are incorrect, cite your own facts, and give me your arguments. I'm always interested in a good debate.

Otherwise, I'll assume you have nothing to add to the conversation besides ad hominem insults.

[randy]

Yes, the actions that supposedly took place in the video CNN is not showing, would be a violation of the Laws of Armed Conflict.

Shit happens in every war. It ain't right, but it is understandable. Especially when large numbers of the defenders are irregular forces. The question is what, if anything, the Ukrainian authorities do about it.

So, yes the Ukrainians should ID and prosecute those that carried out war crimes, if they survive the current war. I would not blame them for putting such investigations on the back burners as they are literally fighting for their survival as a nation and most likely as individuals.

Putin (who don't forget, is the aggressor here, despite all the BS about being "threatened" by NATO et. al) has shown time and again in Syria, Georgia and his previous invasion of Ukraine, that to him war crimes are just another day in the office. The announcement that the civil administration of Mariupol would be subject to military tribunals for not complying with the Russian's surrender demand (which would be a war crime even before the predetermined sentences were carried out) shows that he is bringing back the old days of the NKVD.

The governments on both sides may be assholes (I'm not convinced on that), but the people of Ukraine have done nothing to deserve what is happening, so I have a clear picture of which side I hope wins. Which is NOT the same thing as supporting active intervention on their side against a nuclear armed power with an unstable barbarian as head of state. It it's a choice between Ukrainian civilians and a nuked US city or ten, well, sorry about that,