Help me figure out mobile HF radios

The place for general talk about gun, shooting, loading, camping, survival, and preparedness related tools and gear, as well as gear technology discussion, gear reviews, and gear specific "range reports" (all other types of gear should be on the back porch).
User avatar
Rustyv
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:02 am

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by Rustyv »

to help you study for the tests... https://www.qrz.com/hamtest/

I used their online tests to do some last minute prep before taking mine.

Probably the fastest and cheapest way in is to buy a Baofeng UV-5R from amazon. Sub $40, spend a little extra upgrading the rubber duck to a whip (it was in the recommended products last time I looked). I have a nice kenwood I use these days, but I keep the Baofeng around because it's portable and handy.

Primary difference between the radios is going to be bands, features, and quality. The 857 will run practically DC to Daylight, and everything in between. My Kenwood is a 50w transmitter that does 2m, 1.25m, 70cm, and 23cm, but nothing in the HF bands.

The Baofeng will do 2m and 70cm. On a good day, down hill with a tail wind it'll pump out 5watts.
Welcome to the internet: Where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.

Dance like it hurts, Love like you need the money, Work like people are watching - Scott Adams
Precision
Posts: 5268
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:01 pm

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by Precision »

Ok, so I definitely know I don't know enough to ask cogent questions, but here goes anyway.

430mhz is line of sight which basically means CB or equivalent. The taller the antenna the further away I can pick up and broadcast to. Pick up usually being further than broadcasting. For broadcasting the power rating is a rough approximation of range assuming flat land on a line of sight frequency, correct?

The lower bands are ionosphere bounce bands, so that is why the range and such is variable with them. Sometimes you have good atmospherics, sometimes you don't and that is why you might bounce to 1000 miles away, but not 500 miles away.

Also there seems to be two methods of talking about things. Hz / Mhz as well as meter measure. I am assuming one is the inverse of the other. As in 2m is equal to some kind of HZ equivalent, it is just like .223 vs 5.56 are effectively the same thing (regarding diameter).

DC to Daylight means absolutely zero to me.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
My little part of the blogosphere. http://blogletitburn.wordpress.com/
Precision
Posts: 5268
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:01 pm

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by Precision »

and thanks for the links. I am going to have a fair amount of time Friday and saturday night. Out of town gunshow. So I may get some studying in then.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
My little part of the blogosphere. http://blogletitburn.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Weetabix
Posts: 6106
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:04 pm

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by Weetabix »

Precision wrote:Ok, so I definitely know I don't know enough to ask cogent questions, but here goes anyway.

430mhz is line of sight which basically means CB or equivalent.
430mhz (70cm) is UHF line of sight. CB is HF in the 26-27 mhz (11m) range. Much different. With the right conditions, I understand CB can go hundreds or miles, but I think there's some limit to how far you're legally allowed to transmit.
The taller the antenna the further away I can pick up and broadcast to.

The higher the antenna, the farther you can receive and transmit. We don't "broadcast" ;) Antenna length generally depends on frequency.
For broadcasting the power rating is a rough approximation of range assuming flat land on a line of sight frequency, correct?
The antenna is more important than the power. Some guys can transmit 1000 miles on a watt.
The lower bands are ionosphere bounce bands, so that is why the range and such is variable with them. Sometimes you have good atmospherics, sometimes you don't and that is why you might bounce to 1000 miles away, but not 500 miles away.
Mostly correct. First sentence roughly correct. First half of 2nd sentence mostly correct. The reason you would get 1000 miles but not 500 is because of skip zone. The signal has a "shadow" between the end of line of sight and the place it reflects back down off of the ionosphere.
Also there seems to be two methods of talking about things. Hz / Mhz as well as meter measure. I am assuming one is the inverse of the other. As in 2m is equal to some kind of HZ equivalent, it is just like .223 vs 5.56 are effectively the same thing (regarding diameter).
Approximately 300/mhz = meters or 300/meters = mhz. It's not exact. ETA: Frequency allocation chart
DC to Daylight means absolutely zero to me.
= "It does everything."

I'd suggest you visit the ARRL site and get a Technician's and a General study guide. And I highly recommend qrz.com that someone above mentioned for the practice tests.

I, too, look forward to hearing from Randy.
Note to self: start reading sig lines. They're actually quite amusing. :D
User avatar
randy
Posts: 8334
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 pm
Location: EM79VQ

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by randy »

Yeesh, I hope I can live up to all the hype!

To expound on a couple of Weet's points;

Power output is often the least important variable in long range communications. More power into a crappy antenna system can not only damage your radio, but can turn you into an "alligator", all mouth no ears. Which means you are transmitting your signal far beyond what you can hear, thus just contributing to the noise level (and probably interfering with conversations you have no idea are out there)

In some cases, you actually want a lower antenna, such as when operating Near Vertical Incidence Skywave (NVIS) where you bounce an HF signal straight up and back down to attain "local" communications within 300 miles or so.

I operate at 100 watts (maximum power output of my gear) or less and have been happy with my results.

Meters is a measurement of wavelength. Hz is a measurement of frequency. Weet posted the formula of their relationship. When talking ham radio Meters is usually used to refer to a band of frequencies (as in 20 Meters), while Frequency is used for more precision such as when setting up a contact frequency (such as 14.300 MHz)

The Different types of stations are Base (fixed, such as your home station), Portable (transportable, either hand held or setting up your radio/antenna/power source at a temporary location) and Mobile (station mounted in a vehicle such as a car, boat, aircraft etc.). So, if you were to pull your car over to the side of the road, you would still be operating a mobile station as when I worked a Nevada station while stuck in construction in Yellowstone.

I personally have no problems operating HF voice while driving cross country. Once the antenna is tuned to a band (and I have an automatic tuning system, so press the Tune button and let it sort it self out) you don't generally have to keep your eyes on the radio when tuning around (my radio beeps when I hit the edges of the amateur bands). I clip the microphone to my shoulder belt at chest level. Doing this I have made contacts as far as Cuba when driving in South Dakota.

There are several nets (such as MIDCARS on 7.285 MHz daily) you can check in with, get signal reports to get an idea of how well your equipment is working etc.

Digital is coming on strong for message traffic or emergency operations support, but that is not my primary use of my HF gear in my truck. I save that for the home shack or the local Emergency Operations Center. I just like playing radio when on long cross country trips and having an emergency backup for areas not covered by cell towers. And, playing with it in normal situations gives me practice and gain skills for use in an emergency.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
User avatar
randy
Posts: 8334
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 pm
Location: EM79VQ

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by randy »

Equipment wise, my gear (Icom 706MKIIG) is no longer in production and I haven't kept up, but anything by Kenwood, Yeasu or Icom will be good quality stuff that will get the job done as long as you do your part. No matter what you pick, you will be drawn in to endless Ford v Chevy 9mm v .45 type arguments in the ham community. :twisted:

If I were buying today I'd look real close at the Icom IC-7000 simply because it's closest in look and feel to my 706.

I know several folks with the FT-857D and like them, but I find the control head display and controls a little small for me.

Kenwood's TS-480 is only HF + 6 meters, and is a little big for a mobile for my tastes, but again I know several folks that have been happy with them.

I'll limit this bit to mainly mobile ops

Any ham radio will need to be hooked directly to the battery. I can run my 706 at full (100 watts) on my stock battery and alternator on my Trailblazer, but would not want to run it while the engine was off.

As for antennas, you can go easy or cheap.

On the cheap end, you get a set of Hamstick type mono band antennas, one for each band you want to operate, You will have to stop and switch the antennas when changing bands (for instance when moving from daytime to nighttime ops). The other downsides are, while they are relatively cheap, you can end up spending as much as a high end multi-band antenna to get a full set for all bands, and then having to have room to carry them in your vehicle and getting to them when you need to change bands.

At the other end are multi band antennas such as what I use, the Tarheel screwdriver antenna. (called a screwdriver because the ham that came up with the design used the motor from an electric screwdriver as the drive mechanism). There is a large coil that adjusts up and down to get the proper match for your radio at a given frequency. I have the Little Tarheel which 6-80 meters. The full sized Tarheels would be more effective, but the smaller one is more convenient for parking, and works well enough for me. I have an inline auto tuner that controls the antenna when I press the tune button on my radio. The controller uses the radios built in SWR meter to search for the best match.

If you do go with a Yaesu, they do make a similar multi-band antenna designed to work with their radios (the ATAS series), but you are then limited to Yaesu for full compatibility, and I have had friends that had problems with them.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
User avatar
randy
Posts: 8334
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 pm
Location: EM79VQ

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by randy »

...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
User avatar
randy
Posts: 8334
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 pm
Location: EM79VQ

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by randy »

One last thing for now (FINALLY! said everyone else on the board)

You will need at least a General Class license to operate effectively on HF. Extra Class opens up more frequencies, but may not be worth the effort for what you want.

So, before you spend a lot of money on an HF rig, I'd say get your Technician License, get a VHF/UHF radio to start playing with while you study for your General.

By that time, after hanging around with and talking with other hams, you can refine what you want in an HF rig, and you might even be able to get a good deal on some used gear.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
User avatar
Weetabix
Posts: 6106
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:04 pm

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by Weetabix »

I'll jump back in with some links I've found helpful. Anyone who has better links, chime in. Reading about ham radio is like going down a rabbit hole. ;)

Eham.net has great articles and reviews.

Reviews:
Icom IC-7000
Yaesu FT-857D (I got this one because I seemed to be able to find it cheaper and I already had a used FT-897D, so same programming, shares a tuner, etc)(if you get this one, from everything I've read, skip the Yaesu ATAS and go with Randy's Tarheel)
Tarheel Antennas (I'll skip linking to the ATAS, but you can browse to them)

You'll need a tuner. I've heard great things about the LDG tuners. I bought one for base use, but haven't set it up yet. Can't say about mobile. Randy?

Places to buy stuff:
Local hamfest. Go here, enter your zip code and how far you're willing to drive. You can find good deals at a hamfest. Do your reading first, so you know what you're looking for.
DX Engineering - my favorite - good prices, great service
GigaParts - I've found good prices here, too. Comes up on a sweepstakes screen. Go to Products|Radio Gear
Universal Radio - can't remember if I've bought from here, but everybody links to them
Ham Radio Outlet
Note to self: start reading sig lines. They're actually quite amusing. :D
User avatar
randy
Posts: 8334
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 pm
Location: EM79VQ

Re: Help me figure out mobile HF radios

Post by randy »

Weetabix wrote:You'll need a tuner. I've heard great things about the LDG tuners. I bought one for base use, but haven't set it up yet. Can't say about mobile. Randy?
I have an LDG for use in my home shack, and there is one at the County EOC for it's HF station. Work great.

I don't need one for my mobile as I have a Turbo Tuner that works with my radio and Tarheel to adjust the antenna to resonance. (basically the antenna is the tuner)

I don't think the Turbo Tuner is made any more (it was pretty much designed to work with the IC706), but Tar Heel links to the TuneMatic. I don't know anything about them, but I trust the Tar Heel folks judgment.

This, of course, is the easy way. The cheap way is to use the simple/up down switch that come with the antenna and adjust the antenna manually using the radio's built in SWR meter (or an external meter) to get a dip in SWR. Takes time and you do need to pull off the road to do that. I used a sharpie to mark the resonant points for 10/20/40/80 meters on the outside of my antenna. So I can get close by watching the antenna in my mirror and then fine tuning (literally) using the SWR meter. Back up in case the Turbo Tuner dies.

In between, you have something like the Ameritron SDC-102. You have to tune manually for each frequency, but once you it set, you get a readout so that you can move back there quickly, and has 10 memories for frequently used frequencies.

If you go with a monoband antenna such as a Ham Stick, then the LDG would be a good one to fine tune within a band and adjust when you swap out antennas for another band.

You pays your money for what level of convenience you want. I was lucky in having some unexpected money so I could indulge myself.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
Post Reply