buyin' an EBR

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kparker

Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by kparker »

Thanks, Mike!

So come on, everyone else--no further opinions about the FAL vs M14 choice? :-)

And also my 2nd-to-original question still stands, too:
if you were in my position, and looking at the uncertain future, would you get a real AR before you got a .308 battle rifle, and if so, which one?
I'm leaning to the .308 primarily because I do want the ability to increase my range, but on the other hand the convenient places I have to practice max out at 200yds.
The Quiet Man

Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by The Quiet Man »

I would love to have an M1A. I can afford an M1A. However, I can't afford the magazines which are gawd awful expensive. I would also like a FAL...and my favorite gun store has had a few lately at prices I could easily swing. Magazines are really cheap which is a big plus. But at the end of the day I have to pass because I can't afford to feed either one. 7.62x51 is just horrible expensive. Hell, it's gotten so that 5.56x45 is almost too expensive.

The way things are going now I am looking at buying a Lancaster AK47 and plenty of commie ammo (whch has also gone way up, but it is still affordable) Magazines aren't too bad and Wolf or Golden Tiger ammo is still relatively cheap. And frankly, nothing causes the same PSH as the sight of an AK47!

My take is that the rifle and magazines are the most important part of the equation right now...they will be the first on the list to go. Ammo will go up really high, but will still be somewhat available...for a while. Then is will start to dry up (like a few years ago when commie ammo was really tough to come by). Of course, by that time I will have close to 15 cases of ammo socked away...just in case of that proverbial rainy day. I would much prefer to have a gold standard battle rifle, but I will have to settle for something less that I can afford to fix and feed.
kparker

Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by kparker »

Quiet Man,

What's wrong with reloading? That can go a long way toward mitigating the cost.
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Combat Controller »

I have two M1a's and I rather [strike]like[/strike] love them. Very accurate, reliable, and an easy manual of arms. You can even get a pistol grip on one if you really want to. Both are Springfield of recent manufacture, one is a Scout Squad and the other is a National Super Match. Both are way better shooters than I am.

The FAL is a fine weapon too, but I lean towards the M1a.
Winner of the prestigious Автомат Калашникова образца 1947 года award for excellence in rural travel.
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Whirlibird
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Whirlibird »

kparker wrote:Whirlibird,

Hopefully starting a (friendly!) rwar of FAL vs M14 isn't off-topic here.

I really need to be educated here...
Cause the FAL is more ergonomic.
What other features, besides the pistol grip, do you prefer over the M14?
Cause the FAL is easier to work on.
By "working on" are you talking about just strip and clean, or about doing/installing mods?
Cause it's a FAL
What other details does this imply? Are SA M-14's not well-made these days or something?
Crud, did it again. Lots of typing lost. Shorter version to follow.

From cleaning and maintaining the weapon to actual building, the FAL is much easier to work on. The ease of construction is one definate point in it's favor, as with a minimum of tools and knowledge one can keep an FAL running almost indefinately.

I've built half a dozen M-1a's and around the same number of match Garands and in wood stocks they can become finicky and accuracy can go south for no obvious reason.

Don't get me wrong I like the M-1A, the most accurate .308 autoloader I've used to date was one (1" at 200Y witnessed from the bench). Wish my eyes were up to that today. But for something that I'm going to carry, respond to unknown situations with and may abuse between cleanings, the FAL has shown itself to be more reliable in my experience. The M-1A's tend to eat scopes with the clatter and slap bolt movement. (That might just be my experience though)

My current beater FAL will at best only go 2" at 100Y but it will do it reliably. With mixed junk ammo, it's good for somewhere between 4-6" at the same range. Again, reliably. Some of the garbage I feed it is the same stuff that used to choke the M-1A, I'm almost out of it thankfully.

The varied lengths of stocks available for the FAL, varied cheek heights and buttpad thicknesses means that I can make the FAL fit a whole mess of people for a whole lot less than any adjustable stock for the M-1A. Plus I can mix and match the forend to match my wishes and situation.
I run a metal fore-end on the beater right now, however I can swap out them for the plastic DSA ones in about a minute with no loss or change of accuracy.

The FAL has better ergonomics, the safety being under the thumb rather than having anything to do with the trigger finger is a good thing. Again the easily changed stocks some into play.
The charging handle is easily accessed by the off hand and doesn't require changing a firing grip. I actually prefer the "proper" rifle style grip of the M-1A for range work but it's not as useful for all around use as a "pistol grip".

I'll grant the M-1A's have more accurate sights (unless some work is done) and the rifles are more accurate but how much accuracy do you need being practical? For the price of a good M-1A I can build 2 FAL's. Or 1 FAL and pick up a bunch of mags and ammo (reloading components).

Metric FAL magazines run 1/2 the cost of the M-1A mags, less if you buy in larger numbers.

My department just authorized the use of .30 caliber rifles (we all carry AR's right now) and I'm switching out as soon as I can re-qualify with my FAL. Not as handy in tight spaces, it allows for a greater reach and the increased available power more than make up for it's shortcomings.

I've owned M-1A's, I've built them. They don't stay.
I own FAL's, I depend on them.

As for which would I get first?

That's easy. I'd get the most useful first, I can get specialized weapons later.
A rifle can do what a carbine can, it may not be as handy but it will do the same jobs.
The carbine can't say the same thing.

The carbine uses a reduced power round. In this case a varmint round. I like my AR and do depend of it on the job. But I've had it fail me on a dog (with a good shot) much like CC and his .40 caliber story and ultimately I trust the .30 rifle more.

Do I want the same kind of failure when I'm shooting for blood? No.
Do I want to risk the same failure when the odds are not in my favor and other peoples lives are at risk? No.

The .30 rifle makes cover into concealment.
The .30 rifle has mass on it's side not just velocity.
The .30 rifle makes swiss cheese of the faux-armor that some of the more serious skels wear. If the LAPD had issued or allowed real rifles (heck even carbines) before the Northridge robbery, it wouldn't have been more than a footnote in history.

It's simple, when you need a rifle, you NEED a Rifle.
Get the .308 and stock for it.
Still want a carbine, pick up an AR receiver for a c-note and stick it back for a rainy day.
But have your rifle handy.
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Combat Controller »

Pretty good reasons. I concur.

Side note, it was a 9mm...
Winner of the prestigious Автомат Калашникова образца 1947 года award for excellence in rural travel.
kparker

Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by kparker »

Whirlibird,

Thanks, that kind of discussion is very helpful.

When you mention the word "build", you open up whole new vistas I wasn't anticipating. I've never actually built an AR, though of course like anyone else with a pulse I'm somewhat aware of the vast array of possibilities in that platform. But I've never heard of building FALs.

Keeping in mind that at this point my main interest is in a rifle, not a project, do say more: who sells receivers and other components, what actual work is involved, and how does the result compare to the $1600 MSRP DS Arms that I'm comparing to the entry-level M14's?

Thanks!
DwightG

Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by DwightG »

WB has probably dealt with a greater number of both than I have but my relatively limited experience between the two rifles is almost opposite. I have two M1As and one FAL and I've built (more appropriately "assembled") a couple of each. I've seen malfunctions on the FALs with ammo that my M1A digested nicely. One day at the range, a friend was having trouble with his FAL. Failure to extract/eject. His rifle had been functioning fine with some other ammo. After adjusting the gas vent, he was able to get it to function but then extraction was pretty violent with the previous ammo. Both types worked fine in the M1A. I've also fired cast bullet loads in the M1A that I'm pretty sure wouldn't cycle the FAL (although I haven't tried it) at least without adjusting the gas to one extreme which would then be very violent with standard ammo. The M1A cycled noticeably slower but it cycled.

With the possible exception of the safety, I find the M1A much more ergonomic and definitely more compact. The sights and trigger out of the box will be a lot better on the M1A. The FAL has the advantage of being easily cleaned from the breech end but stripping is simpler on the M1A.

I also don't like the fact that the FAL has no provision for forcing the bolt closed. The charging handle pulls but won't push like on an AR/M16 and they never got around to adding a forward assist to the design. Neither rifle scopes very elegantly but the M1A at least has an attempt at a provision for scope mounting. FAL magazines are indeed cheaper than M14 mags.

Overall, I much prefer the M1A/M14. Mine are both over 25 years old and made mostly of GI parts. I can't comment on the quality of new Springfield Armory production.

My first choice by a fair margin is the M1A but the FAL, even with the things I don't care for, is still my second choice with everything else I can think of a distant third.
kparker

Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by kparker »

To partly answer my build question (but also to ask for a sanity check from those of you who have actually done it!), I found this description on Cruffler.

Ignoring the April 1 date (or maybe I shouldn't), is this typical? Because if so, it's way more than I want to be involved with at the moment; it seems on the same scale as a "Build An AK From Flats" project, rather than a "Pick An Upper And A Lower And Bolt Things Together" AR kind of project.
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Darrell
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Re: buyin' an EBR

Post by Darrell »

Call CDNN about that G3/PTR91 I mentioned in the other EBR thread. It's got a Thompson Center match barrel in choice of 16 or 18", flash hider, machined "tactical" handguard, and it's going for $965. Of course, some people complain about the G3's ergonomics, too.
Eppur si muove--Galileo
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