help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

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help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:56 am

I am looking at having Kreiger do a full fitting:

Full Fitting:
Full fitting of your new Krieger Barrel to your receiver. This requires that you send us all of your parts which are necessary for the fitting. Click here to download our parts send-in check list. Fill this out and send it with your parts.
Price:
With Extractor Cut: $290


https://www.kriegerbarrels.com/files/boltfittingprocedure.pdf

So If I send them the items they are requesting and get them to do the barrel, what else still needs to be done by someone else?

Items I am considering so far:

Stiller Predator action with 20 MOA rail - cut for Wyatt bottom metal
Krieger barrel 28" #17 varmint contour 1:8 twist in 7mm mag -- likely running 168 and 180 gr
Mcmillan A3-5 or just an A5 - not sure yet
Timney trigger - 533-16 1 lb its a two stage with 1.5#, then 1# -- very willing hear alternatives and why.
Wyatt bottom metal with 10 round mags
a good set of ring -- Have not determined which yet
Vortex PST 4x16x50 FFP
Harris or other quality / portable bipod

All kitted up it should weigh in at about 16#
Last edited by Precision on Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby HTRN » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:26 am

I think you're making a mistake in some very fundamental ways in component selection.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Precision » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:54 pm

HTRN wrote:I think you're making a mistake in some very fundamental ways in component selection.



ok that may well be true. Help me to understand what and why.

My goal is to build a precise rifle that will do 600-1000 yds. I am a semi competent 600 yd shooter now, roughly MOA currently. I am hoping with a good rifle and quite a bit more practice to become capable of better at 600 yds and roughly MOA at 1000.

I am choosing 7mm mag because I want to be able to use the rifle in practical situations as well as benchrest or other competitions. So things like 6mm PPC are out.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby slowpoke » Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:42 pm

HTRN wrote:I think you're making a mistake in some very fundamental ways in component selection.

Barrel/caliber and scope off, or something else?
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Steamforger » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:16 pm

I would be extremely wary of a 1# trigger. It just seems to be asking for trouble if you plan to do anything other than benchrest. I'm assuming "practical situations" would be putting meat on the table as 7mm Mag is an excellent, all around hunting round for N America. I do not want to be, or be anywhere near, someone covering terrain in cold, wet weather with that light a trigger. Might just be me...

The other thing, and HTRN can certainly speak more to this than I can, is nothing about benchrest is practical. Build the rifle, then go buy a Rem 700 or old M70 and use for other stuffs. Hell, get one in 7mm. At least you can share some reloading components and develop a good feel for the round. Forcing a 16# rifle with a "breathe on it and it fires" trigger into any other role seems silly.

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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Precision » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:16 pm

Steamforger wrote:I would be extremely wary of a 1# trigger. It just seems to be asking for trouble if you plan to do anything other than benchrest. I'm assuming "practical situations" would be putting meat on the table as 7mm Mag is an excellent, all around hunting round for N America. I do not want to be, or be anywhere near, someone covering terrain in cold, wet weather with that light a trigger. Might just be me...

The other thing, and HTRN can certainly speak more to this than I can, is nothing about benchrest is practical. Build the rifle, then go buy a Rem 700 or old M70 and use for other stuffs. Hell, get one in 7mm. At least you can share some reloading components and develop a good feel for the round. Forcing a 16# rifle with a "breathe on it and it fires" trigger into any other role seems silly.


The trigger is a 2 stage. 1.5# in the first stage and 1# in the second stage so that makes it a 2.5# trigger. Not unsafe or breath on it and fire. I shot a F-class rifle today with a 4 oz trigger. I bumped the trigger with an off finger from the side. went bang. scary. Put it in the 8 ring (by accident), but still scary.

My desire is to have a gun that I could choose to hunt / move with if needed but could also be used for long distance disciplines. Perhaps I should just go build a full on F-class gun or build a tactical shooter that weighs less and limit myself to a shorter barrel (lighter gun) and deal with slower velocities.

My precision AR (with scope and 24" barrel) is just under 12 lbs and that is quite managable to trek with.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby HTRN » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:00 am

Predator is the wrong answer for an action here, not tight enough. Its designed to be a replacement for Rem 700 in hunting rifles. Stillers tac action, One of Bordens offerings(LSR would be my first inclination), Defiance Machine (Deviant Tactical), or Surgeon. The latter two offer integral recoil lugs, which means a longer thread section for the barrel.

7 mag? WHY? Theres a reason why 6mil, 6.5, and 30 caliber dominate 1k, and its due to bullet selection. Personally, I'd go with 300 win mag..

If you're going with 300 win mag, going with some flavor of AICS bottom metal just makes sense. Seekins, PTG, Stiller all make one for LA 700 receivers.

A Timney on a 1k gun? Why? Why would you do that? Say it with me now "Jewell". There, that wasn't so hard, was it? :mrgreen:

Krieger is a good choice in brand, the contour you want, not so much. That countour is really better suited to something that rides in bags its entire life. A better choice would be one of the Palma contours, even with the heavy contour, you'd gain back half a pound of weight AND 2 inchs of barrel length. Another good option in barrels is Broughton, they're the current hot shit in 1k BR, with Kriger coming in at #2.

Mcmillan makes an excellent choice, but they have a huge backorder, so order the stock first. They're also not cheap, something like 600+ by the time youre done. Another option is Russo stocks, he cuts copies of the A5 in wood, and he delivers faster, at a lower price.

Vortex is a good choice in bang for your buck. Rings? Farell is one of best options for rings and mounts from a price/quality standpoint. I think a set of steel rings is under 170 from him.

Steamforger wrote:I would be extremely wary of a 1# trigger. It just seems to be asking for trouble if you plan to do anything other than benchrest. I'm assuming "practical situations" would be putting meat on the table as 7mm Mag is an excellent, all around hunting round for N America.

Shoot light triggers long enough, and "normal" triggers feel weird. If i could, I'd set my hunting rifle around 10 ounces. :ugeek:
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Precision » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:35 am

HTRN wrote:Predator is the wrong answer for an action here, not tight enough. Its designed to be a replacement for Rem 700 in hunting rifles. Stillers tac action, One of Bordens offerings(LSR would be my first inclination), Defiance Machine (Deviant Tactical), or Surgeon. The latter two offer integral recoil lugs, which means a longer thread section for the barrel.


I meant to put Predator / Tac action. I can't find tolerance numbers / differences between the two. I will look at some of the other you mentioned as well.

HTRN wrote:7 mag? WHY? Theres a reason why 6mil, 6.5, and 30 caliber dominate 1k, and its due to bullet selection. Personally, I'd go with 300 win mag..
My original idea was to go with 6.5x284 but with reloader 17 and the new 180 gr 7mm bullets, I can get 2900ish fps with lower recoil then a 300 win and much better barrel life then a 6.5 x 284 and get pretty much the same BC.

HTRN wrote:A Timney on a 1k gun? Why? Why would you do that? Say it with me now "Jewell". There, that wasn't so hard, was it? :mrgreen:
Fair enough

HTRN wrote: Krieger is a good choice in brand, the contour you want, not so much. That countour is really better suited to something that rides in bags its entire life. A better choice would be one of the Palma contours, even with the heavy contour, you'd gain back half a pound of weight AND 2 inchs of barrel length. Another good option in barrels is Broughton, they're the current hot shit in 1k BR, with Kriger coming in at #2.
I thought breech length and thickness was quite important so I was looking for the best dimensions there. Am I wrong in that?

HTRN wrote: Mcmillan makes an excellent choice, but they have a huge backorder, so order the stock first. They're also not cheap, something like 600+ by the time youre done. Another option is Russo stocks, he cuts copies of the A5 in wood, and he delivers faster, at a lower price.
Good to know. How much do you give up in stiffness and other performance by going wood?

HTRN wrote:Vortex is a good choice in bang for your buck. Rings? Farell is one of best options for rings and mounts from a price/quality standpoint. I think a set of steel rings is under 170 from him.
I already have that scope, so I am going to use it until it becomes limiting. I will check the rings.

Steamforger wrote:I would be extremely wary of a 1# trigger. It just seems to be asking for trouble if you plan to do anything other than benchrest. I'm assuming "practical situations" would be putting meat on the table as 7mm Mag is an excellent, all around hunting round for N America.

HTRN wrote:Shoot light triggers long enough, and "normal" triggers feel weird. If i could, I'd set my hunting rifle around 10 ounces. :ugeek:
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Precision » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:33 pm

Using Berger as the test mule

Comparing BC, velocity and drop / drift.

G7 BC for bullets

7mm .345 or .350 at 180 gr
...... .290 or .316 at 168 gr

6.5mm .304 or .310 at 140 gr

.30 cal .354 at 215 gr
....... .295 at 185 gr
......... .264 at 168gr

That seems like either a pretty substantial BC loss with corresponding hitting loss for the 6.5mm or a significant loss in BC for the same hit or a rather large recoil penalty for the same BC in the .30 caliber (in win mag) or a huge velocity loss in .308.

Published load data
7mm rem mag 180 gr runs 2850 to 2950fps with no pressure symptoms for most people at the upper end, but lets say 2900 fps (using reloader 17 Only) With retumbo or h1000 velocity maxes at 2850. Barrel life is expected to be in the 2000 to 2500 range.

6.5x284 with 140 gr is running about 2850 as well, but the lower BC and the lower weight bullet give lessor performance and that is a barrel burner by all accounts, 900-1300.

.30 cal in 300 win that 215gr can also get up to roughly 2850 fps and the bullet weight will be heavier and the BC is slightly better, but that is going to come with a fairly stiff recoil penalty. I am not sure about barrel life on this, but imagine it is not too bad. Shoulder life and rapidity of shots will be the issue.
in 308 the velocity is going to be at best 2400fps and that is just a non-starter.

Am I missing something important that the numbers don't show? It seems like the 7mm mag is the sweet spot between recoil and BC.

The berger ballistics program is down right now so I won't put up drift and drop comparisons, as I am too lazy to move the data over to another calculator right this second.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby slowpoke » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:04 pm

those look like sectional densities not ballistic coeffefients.
check again.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Precision » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:32 pm

slowpoke wrote:those look like sectional densities not ballistic coeffefients.
check again.


They are G7 BC's. That is what should be used with pointy long distance bullets that have boat tail backs and as an average over velocities not figured at peak velocity like G1.

for G1 BC more appropriate for pistol and flat based rifle bullets, but for comparison.

6.5mm at 140 gr .593 & 607

7mm at 168 .628
.......at 180 .680

.30 cal at 168 .507 & .515
.........at 185 .543, .555 , .576
.........at 210 .621 & .625

So again the lightest 7mm is better than either the 6.5 or 30cal from the BC stand point.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby HTRN » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:10 am

You didn't compare the 215 hybrid tactical, nor the 230, both of which surpass the bc of the 7 mil offering. But thats not why its such a not great idea. Ballistic coefficient is not the end all, be all of 1k, otherwise, everybody would be shooting .338 Lapuas. You're assuming that the gun is going to like those bergers. What if it doesnt? 160 grain Matchkings? With 30 caliber, you're talking dozens of alternate possibilities.

As for barrel contour, note two major points, slightly less weight, ESPECIALLY AT THE AWKWARD END OF THE RIFLE, along with 2 more inchs of velocity boosting barrel length. That contour won't get you much over a palma, and considering the compromise nsture of the design in the first place. If it was 17lb bag rider light gun, I'd agree with you, but the, you would be using a stiffer ss action, a 400 dollar trigger, and nightforce, in a very different stock.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Precision » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:00 pm

First off in case you don't know already, I appreciate the critique and the options.

I think I have seen the light regarding the palma contour, will probably go to the medium weight contour. The extra length will be awkward in the field, but the loss of weight will balance for that and the extra velocity will be awesome. So your idea makes lots of sense.

For the longest time I was dead set on 6.5 x 284, but I never really like the 140(ish) gr limit. I have considered the 30 cal class but in order to reach all the way out there 300 win is the ticket and I am not sure how easily 30-60 shots will be for a 160# guy to absorb without a flinch or shooter fatigue by the end of a course. At the 215 and up bullet weight I think that recoil penalty is going to be a limiting factor for me. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/07/30-caliber-vs-7mm-for-long-range-litz-offers-analysis/ a summation of my thought. There are other 7mm heavy high BC manufacturers, but you are correct, not as many as in .30. I still have MONTHS before anyone is cutting a chamber, but I do want to figure out the basics. Thank you for your knowledge in this arena.

6BR, 6xc or the like would be the way to go if I didn't want it to be a dual use gun. But, I want hunting capability as well as tack driver and I may well play some of the tactical / prone courses so it can't be a 22# gun for either of those, see the weight of the driver.

I have an email in to Russo. Those are some nice looking stocks. I like the laminate ones. Thanks for that tip too.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby HTRN » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:18 pm

Keep in mind too, that this is going to be north of 12 lbs of rifle, so its going to be relatively soft shooting.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby HTRN » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:41 pm

Precision wrote:I meant to put Predator / Tac action. I can't find tolerance numbers / differences between the two. I will look at some of the other you mentioned as well.

I dont know off hand what the bolt cleareance is on the tac action, but the predator action is something like .006, while a factory Remington 700 is .008 and up. The Borden I mentioned is .0015, and it has "borden bumps".
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Precision » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:46 pm

HTRN wrote:
Precision wrote:I meant to put Predator / Tac action. I can't find tolerance numbers / differences between the two. I will look at some of the other you mentioned as well.

I dont know off hand what the bolt cleareance is on the tac action, but the predator action is something like .006, while a factory Remington 700 is .008 and up. The Borden I mentioned is .0015, and it has "borden bumps".


I spoke with Stiller. They said the only really difference between the two is the color. Black paint. Sigh. .004 to .006 on either Stiller action


My question on the Borden. How is that tightness going to deal with dust and grit of being in the field? I know the Borden bumps make it "better" but I don't understand what they are / do and why I care. I assume it is not just marketing hype. Illumination would be a good thing. I don't mind paying $3-400 more for the action. Cry once and all that, but I would like to understand why.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby BDK » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:14 am

I had a Bartlein 5R put in my rifle. If I could have gotten it faster, I'd have gone w a Schneider. Really, at the better grades, I don't think it matters who makes the barrel.

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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Darrell » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:09 am

I see Sarco still has some of the Dumoulin Mauser actions, now up to $350. They are .30-06 family, according to the blurb. Would those serve for such a rifle as y'all are talking about?

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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby HTRN » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:05 am

Precision wrote:My question on the Borden. How is that tightness going to deal with dust and grit of being in the field? I know the Borden bumps make it "better" but I don't understand what they are / do and why I care. I assume it is not just marketing hype. Illumination would be a good thing. I don't mind paying $3-400 more for the action. Cry once and all that, but I would like to understand why.

Most tight actions have fluted bolts to give any grit someplace to go. A tighter bolt fit means less slop, therefore greater concentricity. Borden bumps are a patented design feature on borden actions (and i believe nesika bay used to use them) on the bolt just behind the lugs, causing even tighter lockup. Basically, its a short eliptical cross section, that brings bolt clearance to zero when the bolt is turned. Theres a bunch of photos and videos about it online that explains it better than I can, just Google it.

BDK wrote:I had a Bartlein 5R put in my rifle. If I could have gotten it faster, I'd have gone w a Schneider. Really, at the better grades, I don't think it matters who makes the barrel.

All the better barrel makers go through hot streaks, its just that right now, broughton is the current tight setup.

Darrell wrote:I see Sarco still has some of the Dumoulin Mauser actions, now up to $350. They are .30-06 family, according to the blurb. Would those serve for such a rifle as y'all are talking about?

No.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby First Shirt » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:36 pm

Long enough, but the bolt face is wrong? Or is it just not long enough?
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Postby Precision » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:06 pm

I spoke with Russo about the stock. To get a fully adjustable laminate stock it is about $1000 so no price advantage over the Mcmillian but certainly way faster. They are certainly in contention. He has been very responsive and seems like a good guy so that is always an advantage. Thanks for the heads up.

Now off to finish packing for the trip from FL. Leaving at 3AM for the drive with the remainder of my crap. Then on the 10th my "pods" show up. Looks Like I have a full week and weekend. Sigh. But it will be over soon and then I can get back to living or whatever it is I call this.

I think I am going to make this happen in the next month or so.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:34 am

Changed list of Items I am considering:

$1400--Borden LSR (repeater) with 20 MOA rail - cut for Wyatt bottom metal
$815 -- $525 plus $290 for fitting --Krieger barrel 30" Palma standard contour with threads for muzzle brake 1:8 twist in 7mm mag -- likely running 168
and 180 gr Investigating 300 winmag too
$1000 -- Russo equivalent of A3-5 in laminate
$350 -- Jewell HVRTS trigger blueprinted by Borden
$250 -- Wyatt bottom metal with 10 round mags
$200 -- Most likely the Farrell rings
$75 -- Muzzle brake for use with Suppressor if desired
$800 -- Vortex PST 4x16x50 FFP
$100 -- Harris or other quality / portable bipod

+/- $4000 not including glass

Assuming HTRN or anyone else doesn't have further ideas, suggestions regarding components.

Please walk me through the how.
Do I get Krieger to cut the barrel and send it to Borden, then Borden mates it up and puts the trigger in and mounts it all to the stock that I have Russo sent to them as well?

Who does the final chamber cutting?

Do I have Borden sent the assembled parts to Russo for inletting?

Help me to understand the mechanics of ending up with a complete gun, ready to shoot
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:36 am

You still have to fit metal to wood, how to you plan to accomplish that?
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:01 pm

HTRN wrote:You still have to fit metal to wood, how to you plan to accomplish that?



I would have Russo do the inletting and such, then pillar bed it unless there is some reason not to.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:36 am

Precision wrote:
HTRN wrote:You still have to fit metal to wood, how to you plan to accomplish that?



I would have Russo do the inletting and such, then pillar bed it unless there is some reason not to.

To pillar bed, he'll have to have the barreled action on hand. Does he have a FFL? Are you sure he offers this service?
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:32 am

HTRN wrote:
Precision wrote:
HTRN wrote:You still have to fit metal to wood, how to you plan to accomplish that?



I would have Russo do the inletting and such, then pillar bed it unless there is some reason not to.

To pillar bed, he'll have to have the barreled action on hand. Does he have a FFL? Are you sure he offers this service?


Yes, he specifically asked for it and does offer the service. So that part should be fine.

How do I choose who puts the action and the barrel together, who does the final chamber... I know Kreiger can do it. I assume Borden can do it. Are there other fiddly bits that will need to be done too.

for arguments sake.

Get the action from Borden, send the Kreiger barrel to Borden (someone does the final chamber cut) Borden does any final squaring then assembles the action to the barrel, the trigger and bottom metal to the action and ships that off to Russo for the inletting and pillar bedding. In my brain that seems to cover the gamut. But what do I know?
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Steamforger » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:07 pm

You're at a point where, were this my project, I'd seriously consider just getting Something like this with the Jewell trigger and put your glass on it.

It's slightly more than your $4k number, all the heavy lifting is done, and it comes with an accuracy guarantee. Unless you /really/ want to be involved with the actual build as much as you can be...

I went this build route with 1911s and made a fine handgun out of parts, but spent wayyyyyyyy more than I needed to with the justification "the next one will be cheaper if I build it too" and-
1. haven't built another one since.
2. Don't necessarily want to at the moment.

If this current house deal falls through, I may just get that Hospitaller anyway....

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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:58 pm

Steamforger wrote:You're at a point where, were this my project, I'd seriously consider just getting Something like this with the Jewell trigger and put your glass on it.

It's slightly more than your $4k number, all the heavy lifting is done, and it comes with an accuracy guarantee. Unless you /really/ want to be involved with the actual build as much as you can be...

I went this build route with 1911s and made a fine handgun out of parts, but spent wayyyyyyyy more than I needed to with the justification "the next one will be cheaper if I build it too" and-
1. haven't built another one since.
2. Don't necessarily want to at the moment.

If this current house deal falls through, I may just get that Hospitaller anyway....


That is a good looking and good spec rifle, but for my goal of 1000 yds, dropping down to a 24" barrel is a deal breaker
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Netpackrat » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:06 pm

Precision wrote:That is a good looking and good spec rifle, but for my goal of 1000 yds, dropping down to a 24" barrel is a deal breaker


I bet they will build it with a longer barrel if you ask them to.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Steamforger » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:21 pm

Netpackrat wrote:
Precision wrote:That is a good looking and good spec rifle, but for my goal of 1000 yds, dropping down to a 24" barrel is a deal breaker


I bet they will build it with a longer barrel if you ask them to.



Barrel Length: 24 inches (longer barrel special order)
Since every order is essentially a special order....

Precision, please don't misunderstand me as trying to talk you into something that I'd be very happy to have. I get that it's your build and the only person who has to be happy with it is you. It does seem to me that they would be willing to check all your boxes while doing the heavy lifting and guaranteeing a result for roughly the same price.

I only listed it because I thought you might want to know about it, if you already didn't. FWIW, Texas Brigade Armory and Iron Brigade Armory enjoy similar reputations for their builds last I was reading up on such things.

It IS a sexy beast isn't it???

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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:38 am

Precision wrote:How do I choose who puts the action and the barrel together, who does the final chamber... I know Kreiger can do it. I assume Borden can do it. Are there other fiddly bits that will need to be done too.

If it was up to me? Id have borden do everything, for two reasons, 1)They build rifles, so they'll have all the miscellaneous bullshit on hand(case in point: action screws), and are familiar with entire builds. They can probably get that Krieger barrel faster than you can. Also, they can finish the gun the way you want. Shiny stainless is not exactly preferable in a tactical rifle. 2) It minimizes shipping around anything with a serial number on it.

GA precision does do nice work, but since they've become the darling of the tacticool crowd, i suspect youll have a bit of a wait, and will pay more for it the same product. I will say they use excellent components: their templar action is basically a rebadged defiant deviant.

Have you thought about handloading gear, and what that is going to cost? Wilson dies and trimmers, K&T presses, an electronic dispenser for rough dispensing, a super precision scale for the final grain drop, neck turning tools, primer pocket uniformers, etc, etc, etc. And that doesnt even bring the cost of brass and bullets into play..
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby BDK » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:09 pm

I also think it would help if you have a "builder" so there's a single entity responsible for fixing screw ups - lots of custom rifles are screwed up.

The builder I used gets most of his business by correcting bad, high dollar builds, though if you stay w a long established company I'm sure you'll be fine

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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:52 am

Precision wrote:How do I choose who puts the action and the barrel together, who does the final chamber... I know Kreiger can do it. I assume Borden can do it. Are there other fiddly bits that will need to be done too.



HTRN wrote:If it was up to me? Id have borden do everything, for two reasons, 1)They build rifles, so they'll have all the miscellaneous bullshit on hand(case in point: action screws), and are familiar with entire builds. They can probably get that Krieger barrel faster than you can. Also, they can finish the gun the way you want. Shiny stainless is not exactly preferable in a tactical rifle. 2) It minimizes shipping around anything with a serial number on it.
Kind of what I was thinking, but good to hear it makes sense.

HTRN wrote:GA precision does do nice work, but since they've become the darling of the tacticool crowd, i suspect youll have a bit of a wait, and will pay more for it the same product. I will say they use excellent components: their templar action is basically a rebadged defiant deviant.
Waiting is not my friend, I really don't want a "me too gun" and for the same price why not full custom.

HTRN wrote:Have you thought about handloading gear, and what that is going to cost? Wilson dies and trimmers, K&T presses, an electronic dispenser for rough dispensing, a super precision scale for the final grain drop, neck turning tools, primer pocket uniformers, etc, etc, etc. And that doesnt even bring the cost of brass and bullets into play..


I have. My plan for that is to get the dies and work with my forster co ax. Then upgrade a component each month or so as I am willing to budget it in. I am not looking to take on the big names anytime soon (if ever). I am looking to slowly get better. My skill set right now is better than a lee precision set of dies and a mediocre balance beam scale. My skill set is NOT going to notice some of the benchrest things until I get better and I will bring them in over the next year. I shoot my custom AR, less than 8" (5 shots) at 600 yds pretty routinely. With groups at less than less than 4" occasionally. Pretty good especially considering mediocre glass with max of 12x up until recently. I now have the Vortex PST 4x16 which is better glass and better mag, so it should help a bit. I will eventually upgrade to a 6x24 for the custom gun, but bit by bit.

With the rifle, I don't want to compromise and regret. With the reloading, I can spend the $1000-1500 (capital costs) over time and not be too badly off by doing it that way. I have the money. A final Gift from Dawn. I just don't want to lose the liquidity. The expendables will be a chunk at first but 1000 pellets will probably last a year, so...

Is that a viable plan?
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:08 am

Have you considered simply buying a Savage F class to start with? I think they're around 1200 last i looked, and gives you the chance to actually learn The art of long range shooting, instead of learning on something you spent 5 times as much on to have built, only to wear out the nice shiny new barrel (>2000 rds), discovering that hey, you should have done things differently.

Yep, it won't be as accurate. Yes, the 6.5x84 will eat the barrel out faster, but considering the way savages work, thats a half hour job in the garage with an action wrench and a headspace gauge, and you can change it to any caliber you want, because no mag. Add a cast iron windage rest from bullets.com, and bobs your uncle. If and when you decide to go to an actual custom build, you can sell the rifle, probaly for less of a loss than what shooting out that Krieger will cost you, or you may decide to hold onto it, as a practice/competition rifle. Or you may decide you dont need to build a custom, and just send the savage in for truing and a better trigger and barrel.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Steamforger » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:23 pm

Not entirely off topic, but I wonder who at Stiller approved the SS lightning bolts on their Viper actions and what they were thinking. I think I'd have just paid the licensing fees to Chevy for their version instead :?
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:12 pm

HTRN wrote:Have you considered simply buying a Savage F class to start with? I think they're around 1200 last i looked, and gives you the chance to actually learn The art of long range shooting, instead of learning on something you spent 5 times as much on to have built, only to wear out the nice shiny new barrel (>2000 rds), discovering that hey, you should have done things differently.

Yep, it won't be as accurate. Yes, the 6.5x84 will eat the barrel out faster, but considering the way savages work, thats a half hour job in the garage with an action wrench and a headspace gauge, and you can change it to any caliber you want, because no mag. Add a cast iron windage rest from bullets.com, and bobs your uncle. If and when you decide to go to an actual custom build, you can sell the rifle, probaly for less of a loss than what shooting out that Krieger will cost you, or you may decide to hold onto it, as a practice/competition rifle. Or you may decide you dont need to build a custom, and just send the savage in for truing and a better trigger and barrel.


is there a way to make that NOT be a single shot. There are several options that might be as good as I am or way better, but most of them are single shots. Perhaps your logic is good. Perhaps I should go the less expensive route and do the full kit gun later. That part about selling it, against my religion. :D
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby First Shirt » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:27 pm

Savage has a pretty good "custom shop" that will, if it can be made with available components, build whatever you want.

It's run by a really nice lady named Effie Sullivan, and her contact info is:
1-800-370-0708, ext #6
1-413-642-4145
Monday-Friday, 8-4, Eastern.
(This was current as of two years ago.)


Give her a call, tell her what you want, and go from there. There's no charge for asking.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:39 pm

Precision wrote:is there a way to make that NOT be a single shot.

The words "accuracy" and "repeater", dont usually go in the same sentence. :ugeek: :mrgreen:
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Netpackrat » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:23 am

HTRN wrote:
Precision wrote:is there a way to make that NOT be a single shot.

The words "accuracy" and "repeater", dont usually go in the same sentence. :ugeek: :mrgreen:


Yeah... I'd never heard of the Savage F-Class model until HTRN posted about it, so I googled it. One of the differences is the receiver is not even machined for a magazine well. All of that extra metal stiffens the receiver, and is one of the reasons it is more accurate than the standard model Savage bolt action. So getting their Custom Shop to build you one with a magazine is probably not going to happen. If you look at it closely, you may note that they also made the ejection port smaller than normal.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:11 am

It gets better, the action in question, the Savage Target Action, has a different mounting footprint then the regular Savage actions (10/110/12/etc). It has 3 action screws, on of which goes right where the magazine cut is. :ugeek:

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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:49 am

I may end up going that route. It does make more sense. I had steered away from that because of no ability to put bottom metal. But as a training platform and at 1/4 the price, it makes a lot of sense. 6.5x284 and by the time I burn the barrel, I might have a real idea of what the next one needs to be.
Thanks guys for doing the Savage research. I have been a little brain tied. I think the holiday, the move and just the fact that I still wake up in shock that Dawn isn't in the bed have me a little depressed and a little off my game.

Probably smarter for that reason alone to get the Savage.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:05 am

Precision wrote:5x284 and by the time I burn the barrel, I might have a real idea of what the next one needs to be.

And when you do that, I'll give ya thoidy cents on the dolla fer it, even with a shot out barrel.. :mrgreen:

Criterion, among others, makes a variety of prefitted replacement barrels.

And the reason i know so much about it, is i want one.. BADLY. :ugeek:

Come to the dark side, before long, I'll have you on a wating list for a Seb Neo, reloading using an analytic scale and wilson dies, and wondering how the hell it took you 20 hours to load 50 rounds of ammunition. :mrgreen:
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:21 pm

HTRN wrote:
Precision wrote:5x284 and by the time I burn the barrel, I might have a real idea of what the next one needs to be.

And when you do that, I'll give ya thoidy cents on the dolla fer it, even with a shot out barrel.. :mrgreen:

Criterion, among others, makes a variety of prefitted replacement barrels.

And the reason i know so much about it, is i want one.. BADLY. :ugeek:

Come to the dark side, before long, I'll have you on a wating list for a Seb Neo, reloading using an analytic scale and wilson dies, and wondering how the hell it took you 20 hours to load 50 rounds of ammunition. :mrgreen:


Tempting offer, but I don't sell guns.

The dark side. I think I am already there. Just needing some detailed instructions on how to spend more money on these things. I think I am gonna call in my order for the Savage 18155 today. Have to see how long it will take to get in. The waiting always sucks.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:54 am

I caved in to common sense this afternoon. I placed my order for the Savage F-class in 6.5x284. With my awesomeness discount, my out the door price will be just under $1300. Not sure how awesome that makes me. The good new, the gun should be at the MOD in two weeks or so.

Then I dropped a several hundred on dies, 200 bullets, 100 pieces of brass and some cleaning supplies at Sinclair. I will be getting some 4831 and some 4350 locally, then I will be home brewing some bullets and breaking the gun in, then testing the loads. The bullets were two different Berger 140's. I was also gonna buy some JLK's but their website was acting hokey and I figured go with the Bergers unless they don't work. Simpler that way.

Once I get going, I will need to figure out what other tools I need and in what order. Should be lots of fun even if it slowly drains me dry. :D
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:47 pm

Precision wrote:Then I dropped a several hundred on dies, 200 bullets, 100 pieces of brass and some cleaning supplies at Sinclair.

Tell me what you bought, and I'll tell you what you did wrong. :mrgreen:
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby randy » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:22 pm

HTRN wrote:
Precision wrote:Then I dropped a several hundred on dies, 200 bullets, 100 pieces of brass and some cleaning supplies at Sinclair.

Tell me what you bought, and I'll tell you what you did wrong. :mrgreen:


Tell him what you didn't buy and he'll tell you what you did wrong.

He's flexible that way. :twisted:
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:32 pm

Stock Number / Description Retail Price Your Price Quantity Total
749-008-299WS (In Stock)
Redding Competition Bushing Neck Die Set 6.5-284 Norma
Write a Review $239.99 $239.99 1 $239.99
749-007-835WS (In Stock)
6.5/284 Winchester Lapua Brass 100/Box
Write a Review $129.99 $109.99 1 $109.99
749-005-242WS (In Stock)
Berger 6.5mm 140 gr Match Target VLD Bullets - 100
Write a Review $46.99 $46.99 1 $46.99
749-005-239WS (In Stock)
6.5mm (.264") 140gr Match Hunting VLD 100/Box
Write a Review $46.99 $46.99 1 $46.99
749-101-660WS (In Stock)
Bore Tech Proof Positive Nylon Rifle Brush (3 pack), 6.5 mm
Write a Review $7.49 $7.49 1 $7.49

I am gonna get some h4831sc and some h4350 powder to see how they work.
I already have a hornady brass trimmer.
For now, I shouldn't have to worry about donuts, but eventually I need a neck trimmer.
I know I will need a better scale -- suggestions

What other thing am I going to want as I chase smaller groups
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:26 am

The Redding dies are one of the best choices available for those who dont want to make the leap to arbor dies.

Ditto the Bergers, but i think you're over looking the Sierra 142 VLD MK. It's used a fair number of 6.5 shooters as its performance is not far off the Bergers, and are much, much cheaper (Midway is currently having a sale: under200/500ct) Another popular option is Lapua scenars, but they tend to be even pricier than the Bergers. Some thing that isnt popular in competition, but may make economic sense for somebody whos learning, is the Hornady option. The trick is finding something with a high enough BC.

Lapua makes good brass usually, but they had a bad run of it in, iirc, 2006. Personally, i would have nosed around a few long range forums to see whos got the best at the moment.

H4350 and H4831SC are probably the two most popular powder choices for 6.5x284, but if you cant find a good load with either, you may want to try reloader 22 or 25, H1000, or even the imr versions of 4350 and 4831. There are some Vitavouri powders that are popular as well, but i dont bother with it as T&T doesnt carry it, and you almost never see the big jugs of it in retail stores. As soon as you find your load, goout and buy enough powder for 1200 to 1500 loads, WITH THE SAME LOT NUMBER. I can't emphasize this enough - CONSISTENCY IS EVERYTHING.

On that note, powder dispensing - the preferred method is to use an electronic dispenser, but set it a few tenths low of the intended charge weight. Then use a high precision analytic balance(like the 250 Gempro, which is the best sub 500 dollar option, but more than a few complaints) and trickle up to final charge weight using either a manual or electronic trickler. You can also use a manual scale to do this, i would reccommend hunting down an ohaus 10-10 on ebay if you decide to do so, and possibly use either a omega 2 trickler with break beam, and/or use their prism to better see the needle.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:54 pm

the Omega is out of stock most places and I think for now, I will just use my manual trickler. I see the benefit, but for reloading 10-20 rounds at a time I can afford the extra few seconds.

The 250 gempro is fairly cheap on Amazon at $125. gonna go ahead and get one. For now I am going to also skip the electric dispenser route. My mechanical dispenser is fine especially with the trickle charge and the Gempro. Set it a little low and trickle away.

Seeing as I am still the limiting factor, perfection on prep is not soooo important yet.

I picked up 1 # of 4350 and the same of 4831SC along with a box of the Hornady XLD 140 gr bullets, pretty much the same G7 BC as the Bergers. I don't want to get myself too many variables. Two powders and effectively 2 bullets as the two bergers should be pretty damn close to interchangable. I am going to run CCI primer at least at first. I have some standard and some benchrest so we will see if that makes any difference in SD / velocity.

I am not overlooking the Sierras. I didn't find them at my 2 go to stores and I want to limit my load work variables. If I can get the hornady or bergers to work, then I am done for now. If not, Sierra and JLK will join the mix.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:26 pm

H4350 is stupid consistent interms of velocity over temperature, something like 25fps over 100f. Its one of the big reasons why its so popular in long range competition.

You might want to check 6mmbr.com for some articles on the 6.5x284, notably on what you can do to extend barrel life the big issue is carbon buildup in or close to throat.

You also might want to look at federal match primers, theyre very popular for this application.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:05 am

I have been. My only problem with 6mmbr is they don't update the articles that are often 5+ years old regarding availability / prices, but they do usually have a date, so ... picking a pretty small nit.

One reason I bought the nylon brushes. That is a suggestion for removing the carbon. I am also planning on getting some carbon remover (chemical) when I pick up the gun.

In a few days the bullets will be here and probably about a week before Christmas, I will have the gun.

Any good links for BR prep 101.

Any suggestions for neck turning equipment?
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:30 am

Look around benchrest central, youll learn alot there.

Neckturning? I used to say Nielsens "pumpkin", but they're no longer available. Between Sinclair and K&M, I think the K&M is the better value. Can't comment on the 21st century stuff, like their "lathe"
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:30 pm

I went with the K&M set up. I got a few of their other bits. Now just have to wait for the gun to show up, then the fun can start.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Combat Controller » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:31 am

I think you are underglassed for that rifle. I have a Vortex on a rifle and I love it, but I think a Swaro or a NF are the kind of territory you need to be looking in.
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:10 am

Hmm, something like a nightforce 12-42 BR scope qould make more sense, as this is a true competition rifle, rather than his jack of all trades custom he initially wanted to build..

At this rate, I'll having him leasing a Prometheus 2 scale before the year is out.. :ugeek: :mrgreen: :lol:
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby Precision » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:58 am

most of my kit came in. Now I just have to get the actual GUN. HMMM before Christmas which approaches quickly...
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby BDK » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:32 am

For what its worth, in the long, long ago in the lab, we used some manner of plastic boats (might have been teflon), and some irritatingly precise analytical scales.

Might work well for weighing charges. I don't think powder is going to stick a boat, and it might be simpler to weigh the charges into boats, then put them into the brass.

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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Postby HTRN » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:30 pm

BDK wrote:For what its worth, in the long, long ago in the lab, we used some manner of plastic boats (might have been teflon), and some irritatingly precise analytical scales.

Might work well for weighing charges. I don't think powder is going to stick a boat, and it might be simpler to weigh the charges into boats, then put them into the brass.

Thats basically how its done in br.

Get initial charge from something like a rcbs charge master, dispensing into a brass pan.
Move said pan to high precision electronic scale, and trickle the last few kernals in, until it hits charge weight.

You dont want to use plastic pans because of static issues.

The hot setup is a analytic scale from somebody like Sartorius, but your talking four figures for the scale. The one i want, for example, is over 1300 dollars on amazon.
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