Thoughts on JHP vs. Flat meplat bullets...

[BDK]

No JHP works reliably on an animal, from a handgun*, which leads me to question whether we should use them for self-defense in less crowded areas.

*(Not counting certain hand-cannons. Long-barreled magnums/500 S&Ws/454 Casulls, etc.)

So, I re-read the Forensic Analysis of the Matix/Platt shootout last night.

And, admittedly, I've been shooting wadcutters, recently, out of my snub-nose 12 oz J frame.

The agents shot rather well, all things considered, and, while they did have to reload, it seems like it was after their bullets failed to penetrate.

Not an expert, could be terribly wrong, but here's my thought process:

I am fairly ambidextrous, and have issues in my hands, so I pocket carry on my right, and hip carry on my left. I figure if I need to make a longer/aimed shot I can switch to my right hand, and I will be practicing more with my left, but I have done a fair amount of single-hand shooting with my left.

Downtown/Urban carry: JHPs, if the terminal performance is reliable. Solid bullets for reloads/further down in the magazine.

Any muggings/other assaults tend to initiate at bad breath distance.

Pocket carry over hip. Hip will require some manner of retention. Pocket carry: More discrete, and easier to put your hand on when a homeless person accosts you - and too many scum who would be upset to see someone put his hand on a holstered sidearm when a hobo starts yelling at him, but someone can go into a "ready" position with a pocket gun - and odds are the predator will know what has been done.

However, a weapon should be useable out to 20-25 yards, to permit engaging someone on the opposite side of a street in a normal pedestrian-friendly area. (Having to engage across a major thoroughfare doesn't seem nearly as likely.)

I believe revolvers are the best pocket gun option. Tighten/thread lock* all the screws, keep it clean, and it should be OK in a pocket. As the sights do not move with recoil, and there are some models with decent front sights, keeping all shots Center mass out to 20 yards, is not that difficult.

Some manner of non-lethal device might be useful do deal with the mentally ill who have been permitted to invade the streets.

Laser sights are valuable, particularly for people who wear glasses, as the victim is likely to be very close to his attacker, at least initially.

Downside, I'm not sure there are many JHPs which reliably perform out of a pocket gun, even at contact distance. I do not like many compact semi-autos. I think they are difficult to develop proficiency with. The slide speed is so high, it may be very challenging to track the front sight. I do not recall ever doing so.

*Vital on any carry gun, but especially ultra-light revolvers. I use loctite 222MS, which was developed for use in watches. It wicks, and is supposed to prevent galvanic corrosion, but not increase the force required to remove a bolt or screw, merely to prevent it from vibrating loose. It seems to work.

Suburban/Sprawl carry:

Pocket, and hip, when possible. Hip, over pocket. Retention is still a good idea, but more for slips/falls than to prevent someone grabbing it in a crowd/it coming out when physically assaulted. Probably more likely to run into larger groups of attackers/as they will have room to attack in a group, without arousing suspicion, and will all be in 1 car.

Easier to carry a G19/Commander/possibly a full-size, but lots of car time, so it may be harder to do so comfortably, than in an urban area. It should be possible to carry a platform with reliable JHP performance at 25 yards.

However, engagements to 50 yards are not impossible - its a land of parking lots, and often crime-ridden industrial/commercial districts.

This is, probably, the land of the 10MM/357 Sig/357. 45 ACP just tends to fall down past 35 yards. Not sure that a 9MM JHP can reliably perform at those distances.

Carry solids for reloads/lower in the magazine, in case of barriers.

Rural Carry

Long-gun mainly. Given the distances/response times/that attackers will be coming in a car, its the land of the AR, with a shotgun for vermin control. (I have a lever action 410, which is remarkably useful for eliminating possums/raccoons/squirrels/foxes, etc.)

Depending on location, the best sidearm may be an airweight, larger revolver, with the initial round or two loaded anti snake rounds.

Or, a full-size semi auto, with the initial round loaded with a snake round, if it will cycle the weapon.

Otherwise, load solids. Sidearms are mainly for snakes, bumping hogs, etc.

[Netpackrat]

I am not sure the Miami shooting is all that valid of a reference point today for discussion of equipment or bullets. As an example of poor tactics, sure. But the bullets in use were at least one or two full generations behind what is currently available.

I would never argue against the 10mm, but these days I only carry mine if I am going to be out in the field; around town it is G19 and/or Smith 442 loaded with modern hollowpoints. Still using XTPs in the 10mm which is arguably sub optimal compared to hardcast, but it's a secondary weapon and 16 rounds of 180 XTPs at 1200 is nothing to sneeze at.

[BDK]

I'm sure the modern ones are better - but I have my doubts about the standards. I used to compete with a bunch of gigantic ex-cons, Neo-NAZIs, and outlaw bikers.

We are descended from the best monkey at surviving being poked with sharp sticks, and our skeletons are designed to deflect those.

And, I do not know at what distance the bullets are usually tested at - youtube videos shows them fairly close.

EG, Federal HST 38 specials look great - expansion to about 3/4", decent penetration - but failed unless they had a muzzle velocity of 800 fps on Lucky Gunner's tests - they did not mention the velocity at impact.

I would like to know at what distance the rounds drop below the required velocity.

[Netpackrat]

I have been running 135+p grain Gold Dots in the 442 (short barrel load) and 124+p HST in the G19.

[BDK]

This is an interesting article.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0702107.pdf

[BDK]

Also https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowle ... agnum.html

[Marius]

Hi everyone. I'm new on this site...so pleased to meet you. I'm all the way from South Africa. Want to mention that I've done extensive testing with Hornady 115 grain XTP bullets for 9mm. The bullets may be old tech, but the powders available today are not. The moment you run a 115 grain XTP at 1200 f/s or faster, it comes into its own, and compares well to any premium(and more expensive) bullets. Some performance ammunition companies in the USA are running 115 grain XTP's at 1300 f/s. I loaded the 115 grainers at 1200 with no pressure signs at all, and very controllable from a Beretta 92, as well as a CZ P07. In fact, from the Beretta 92, the 115 grainers run at 1240 f/s with the same load used in the P07.

[HTRN]

Sounds like a good candidate for a 9x25 dillon.

[BDK]

If this is right, 45 doesn't drop off as fast as it seems to, when we plink at silhouettes. Not sure what's going on. Maybe this is for a more distant zero... (I think we are zero'd at 10 yards, most likely.)

https://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics-calculator

Again, it would be interesting to see how much the lost velocity matters for adequate penetration - I still think more rounds need to be closer to the 18" mark.