Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

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Mike OTDP
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:42 pm

Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by Mike OTDP »

Vent mode ON...

One of the reasons I have around here is the quality of the discussion. Would that it were that good elsewhere. I'm a regular over at The High Road, and it's becoming infuriating to deal with the denizens of their black powder community. Painfully ignorant, and proud of it....which bothers the hell out of me, since I've shot at 9 World Muzzle-Loading Championships. Provide sage counsel based on hard experience, and you get ignored. I know of at least two World-class competitors who have quietly stopped bothering.

But there are a couple of bigger issues that just gnaw at me. American shooters have a couple of infuriating habits.

First is the belief that a firearm's cost should be in proportion to the caliber. You have no idea how often I've seen the "What's the best target .22 for $400?" threads, usually from people who are willing to pay twice that for a 1911. Machining is machining, the size of the hole in the bore doesn't matter. Yet people don't get the idea. I won't mention the folly I see in the Ruger/Buckmark arguments from the perspective of a man who shoots a Hammerli.

The other is the notion that somehow a muzzle loading gun is supposed to be unbelievably cheap. Same argument...precision craftsmanship costs money.

I won't even mention the abysmal lack of skill I've seen at my local club. Low...and not willing to practice. Tooth-grinding.

Vent mode OFF.
Aesop
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by Aesop »

I feel your pain.

Every American male, including 98% of Gun Fearing Wussies, harbors the quiet mental certainty that he is the direct descendant of Davy Crockett, Annie Oakley, Wyatt Earp, and Audie Murphy, with no background, training, or discernible mad skillz whatsoever to back this up.

It's probably just more noticeable in the black powder forums (which crosses low-budget shooters with low-IQ discourse, overall, for a double whammy) because that's about the shallowest end of the gene pool (and lowest budget point) where actual bangsticks are concerned.

It's just as bad in cowboy shooting, practical (and unpractical) shooting, 3-gun, high-power, and long-distance. Ask me how I know.
It would be as bad in even paintball and airsoft, but you go to those knowing you're dealing with shit-flinging pre-adolescent monkeys (complete to the prehensile tails), so the torrent of hurled feces, the cacophony of simian shrieks, and the rampant jackassery is far less of a shock when you see it there. And, if you time it right, you can shoot the most egregious offenders there in the dick and not get caught.

I'm reminded of the example of Don Paul, author of numerous accessible books on a host of SF subjects: when you try to tell stupid people doing stupid things they're being stupid, and they ignore you, "Suit yourself" is the correct reply and attitude. Correctly spelled as "Suture self."

If outdoors at the time, whenever possible, follow that up by placing at least one range berm between yourself and the offenders.
It pays better dividends than any other course of action, and as an extra added bonus, you won't be called to testify at the inquest. 8-)
"There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable, and praiseworthy." -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Old Grafton
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by Old Grafton »

I started gunsmithing in my late twenties as a hobbyist and nothing built my skills/knowledge base faster than becoming involved in high-power rifle match shooting and learning to meet the demanding requirements of the other shooters for match-quality equipment. I long ago gave up "how-to" on the 'net because the commentary invariably fell off the cliff. I don't say much at all now because someone with better "keyboard knowledge" invariably tells me I'm full of crap. I'm the first to state I don't know everything but the time is better spent just reading and trying to sort the gems out of the shitnuggets.

I know a FEW serious muzzleloader folks; the vast majority of the rest--not so much. One brand, one powder, one load, no effort to get better results, and utilitarian interest at lowest cost. That's fine, but sometimes a good steak beats ground beef.
I'm not old--It's too early to be this late.
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PawPaw
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by PawPaw »

I get it, guys, I get it.

For the past year, I've been heavily into CFDA shooting, wax bullets through single-action revolvers. Even though we're shooting squib loads, we're hard on revolvers. We're snatching fast on delicate lockwork, and our guns get lots of shooting. (I'm sure that the SASS guys have the same problems). In the past year, I've had four guns fail, either under competition or practice, and I know of no good reliable guys locally that can work on 1873 revolvers (or Rugers, for that matter). So, I've had to earn how to do things like change springs, diagnose problems, do basic tweaking.

I've learned a lot from the guys I compete against, and I'm constantly amazed at the level of gunsmithing available at matches. One guy, near Houston, has specialized on the Ruger Vaquero. He had to learn after his gunsmith died, and he's very good with that particular model. I've learned a lot from him, but I only see him two or three times per year.

When faced with a problem on either the Colt Clones or the Ruger, I first go to YouTube. Some of those videos are very good, but most of them are horrible. So, I wind up at the bench, cussing like a shipwrecked sailor, scratching my head, and trying to figure out what particular little part is causing the problem in the first place. Experience is a powerful teacher, and I've learned that some of those tiny little parts will shoot across the garage to be lost forever.

But, I've learned which online sources I can trust and which online sources to cull.
Dennis Dezendorf
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BDK
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by BDK »

It's not just American males - taught a few Euros, even ones who did their military service, and they didn't have a clue - nor have a few American ex military - but the Americans can clean an AR like nobody's business.

Now, I did have one Euro who dropped right into a proper kneeling position - which I've never seen anyone "guess" at, and start popping targets right off - but we all had some questions about some of his back story.
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First Shirt
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by First Shirt »

Someone (maybe Denis?) once said "All American men believe that they are great drivers, great marksmen, and great lovers. I don't know about that, but I've seen them drive, and I've seen them shoot, and I think I understand why the divorce rate is so high."
But there ain't many troubles that a man caint fix, with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six."
Lindy Cooper Wisdom
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Mike OTDP
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by Mike OTDP »

I can believe it. I had the good fortune to be the son of a highly ranked black powder shooter, and to have trained with two others, one of whom held a World Record at one point. Started training seriously at 13, competing at 15. Which means I'm accustomed to shooting every shot for record score, even in practice. I make a point of going against better shooters than myself to keep the pressure on.

But my tooth-grinder is shooters who are inept, ignorant, and proud of it.
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skb12172
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by skb12172 »

It's not just shooting. In the online musician forums, I have seen 15 year old kids or 30-60 year old amateurs dominate threads over nationally and internationally known performers. What usually happens is that the true talent quietly drops out or goes elsewhere and leaves the Yahoos to their devices. People suck. Just look at "popular" culture.
There must be an end to this intimidation by those who come to this great country, but reject its culture.
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evan price
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by evan price »

I'm a member of a number of gun-related Facebook groups. A couple months ago Facebook purged as many gun groups as they could find due to their new rules against buying & selling guns (regardless of if that is actually a legal activity in most states!) Anyway their new ToS states no firearms sales, and groups have to pledge to agree to this and enforce it or face re-deactivation. A lot of great groups that didn't even sell guns got shut down en mass and it took a while to get them back up so people are sometimes a bit twitchy about that still.

Anyway, it's no secret that I collect revolvers, not nice new in box but instead shooters. I just like them. A number of members online, including myself, like to post pics and stories about that great new piece we picked up in several relevant groups.

In this case, one of the groups is Curio & Relics. I post in several of those groups as well as various revolver pages.

Most recently I picked up a shooter-grade common revolver for a screaming cheap price on Gunbroker. I posted a picture of it and captioned it with "Delivered to my door by the US Government without a background check."
Since I had posted the same thing in a few other forums I figured I'd get the usual 50-60 likes, a few comments, some small talk about the gun, etc.
This held true for all of the forums but the C&R Forum.
Immediately. "Don't talk about this, don't post things like this, you are breaking the law, the ATF will be raiding your house, this is illegal, this is not what we want talked about, this will get our group shut down, you are an assh*le for posting this, WTF is your problem, etc"

WTF? I bought it from an 01 FFL Dealer on Gunbroker in another state. They shipped it USPS to me, an 03 C&R FFL. C&Rs can receive C&R handguns by mail, but not send them. The transaction was totally legal in all regards. But the amount of butthurt has been epic!

I try to get people interested in alternatives to the dwindling military arms that are traditional C&R interests. Every day there are people lamenting the fewer and fewer C&Rs that are imported. It's like the idea that C&R guns are military surplus is just hardwired. If it's not a Mauser a Makarov or a Mosin it's alien. There's a whole world of classic American firearms out there with more and more every day becoming eligible. Colts and S&Ws and Savages, WInchesters, Remingtons, even early Armalite ARs and AKs and SKS and FAL rifles are C&R.

I get people saying that only antiques are mailable. (Technically true, but an 01 can mail handguns) I was told that only certain guns are C&R (FALSE any gun over 50 years old automatically becomes C&R) I heard that if the gun is not in the C&R registry it is not C&R eligible (FALSE the ATF even says that entry in the register is not necessary!) I was told that guns that are still in production can't be C&R (Partly true- the ones that are at least 50 years old are C&R- the newer ones are not) I was told that machine guns can't be C&R (FALSE, ATF even says that C&R machine guns exist but NFA rules must still be followed for transfers...but if you get the stamp, a C&R NFA item can ship direct to your licensed premises!)

These are the guys who are C&R collectors, and they don't even know their own rules...27 CFR §478.11 is in hard copy right in the C&R packet they get with the license!
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics
Curios & Relics

A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR §478.11, defines Curio or Relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) for a formal classification.

Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA. If your C&R item is an NFA firearm (e.g., Winchester Trappers) and you desire removal from the NFA status, you must submit it to FATD for evaluation and a formal classification.

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MarkD
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Re: Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth...

Post by MarkD »

Regarding forums and what happens on them, Mark's First Rule of Social Interaction states that in any population, the percentage of assholes is non-zero. Doesn't matter what the forum is, there will be assholes. The very worst flame war I ever saw was on a Model Railroading forum. Want to see the assholes come out of the woodwork? Go to a model railroad forum and ask if N or HO scale is better. Go to a cigar forum and express a liking for Ghurkas (or in fact a liking for anything but Cubans). Or for real laughs go to a fresh water fishing forum and ask about fishing with live nightcrawlers (aka worms). For that matter you could go to most gun forums and express admiration for Taurus products.
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