In Defense Of FMJ .45acp For Self Defense/CCW

[PawPaw]

I'm really fond of the Lee 230 gr. TC bullet, sort of a semi-wadcutter, but not quite. On those occasions when I carry a 1911 while hunting hogs, it's the load of choice, since it doesn't expand for crap, even at 850-900 fps, but it does dig a nice, deep, hole.

Unless I'm mistaken you sent me some of those once, to try out. Great bullets. Really nice on paper. I didn't have the opportunity to try them out on hide, but I have no doubt they'd have worked as advertised. There's something lovely about a 230 grain bullet traveling 850 fps.

[skb12172]

When I still carried my Makarov, I would have two mags of Hornady XTP, then in the glove box, two more mags of Wolf FMJ. There were a lot of arguments for using FMJ in 9x18 for better penetration.

[Kommander]

When I still carried my Makarov, I would have two mags of Hornady XTP, then in the glove box, two more mags of Wolf FMJ. There were a lot of arguments for using FMJ in 9x18 for better penetration.

Well to be fair it's not like you need allot of penetration to execute someone via a shot to the back of the head.

[Jericho941]

FMJ .45ACP? Good enough for great grandpa, lackluster for me.
FMJ .30-06? Good enough for everyone from 1906 onward.

[evan price]

So, yeah, while the .32 SW long isn't my first choice, it's HER first choice and that makes a difference to me. She loves her little shiny revolver, and if that makes her more likely to have it available, I'm okay with it.

PawPaw, I have a sick affection for 32 S&W Long. I have no freaking idea why. I love that cartridge. I've got a handful of guns chambered in it. I load my own, and get exciting results. I can load anything from popguns with a single #0 buckshot pellet all the way to 100-gr Speer JHPs at +P that I would never trust in a breaktop.
There's a guy around the Gunnyverse named "Clark" who is the insane brother-in-law people hear about at gunshows. A direct quote from him is that the Colt Police series of 32s are great because you can weld up the forcing cones when they crack. IIRC he had loads developed that exceeded 327 Federal in 32 Long brass because a S&W K32 can take it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/inde ... 45562.html

ClarkFebruary 26, 2012, 02:11 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
After I read this:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en& ... SU4bR2jz8J
I then saw revolvers in a different light.
The star extractor of many revolvers, extracts 6 cartridges at once with finger tip force, making sticky cases problematic.
In 2004, 12 years after he wrote that post, I recruited John to help prove all the load books were wrong about the CZ52 being stronger than the Tokarev.
Still it haunts me why I did not figure that out [that sticky cases drive SAAMI registration pressures of revolvers] myself. I had all the clues. The 9mm test loads I did when I started handloading showed signs in the rim and sides that huge forces were involved in extraction.

The things that typically stop me in a load work up in a revolver:
1) The cylinder splits and breaks the top strap
2) The cylinder splits
3) The break top latch stretches making the action sloppy.
4) The frame-bolt-cylinder fit gets beat up making the cylinder rotation at firing to be sloppy.
5) The cases stick.
6) The forcing cone blows out.

I had been experimenting with S&W revolvers, and they shoot loose. Not always. I have an old 25-2 that has seen a lot of hot loads, but still has one chamber that is tight.
Then ~ 8 years ago I got 5 Colt Police Positives for destructive test. The design where the trigger pushes on the hand that pushes on the ejector & ratchet that rotates the cylinder that pushes against the bolt that pushes against the frame that captures the trigger pin that pushes on the trigger. This loop of force causes the cylinder to lock up tight when the trigger is pulled.

This great design shows up after 1907 in the Police Positive 32 S&W Long.
Not only is the inside diameter of the chamber only .340", but the walls to the outside are .070" and the wall between are .058".
Scaling off 460 Rowland revolver cylinder wall stress, the old Colt 32 S&W Long cylinders should then be good for 58,000 c.u.p.
So in the Colt 32 S&W Long, I saw a revolver that would not shoot loose, and the cylinder was going to be impossible to split with slow powder before the cases stuck.
But the forcing cone was not going to co operate with my plans.
So I have to TIG weld on thicker forcing cones made of drill rod.

[Netpackrat]

Wow, what a douche.

[MarkD]

I've heard you're better off with fmj in the smaller cartridges like 32 or 25, or SWC for standard pressure 38 special. The idea being if it expands you won't get enough penetration. I doubt that's an issue for 45/or 9 mm.

That was true up until the early 2000s. With modern +p loadings it no longer is.

Well... except for .25acp... we've been over how useless and pathetic the .25 is overall many many times.

I'd add also that some older guns won't handle the +p loads, and also some people have trouble handling them. The former comes under your advice of "change the gun", but for the latter there's not much to be done. I'm thinking specifically of a girl I knew who had tiny hands and severe arthritis. In her case I'd have recommended one of those .22 belly-guns with the tip-up barrel, especially since .22 is (or at least was) cheap enough to practice a LOT with, and as Jeff Cooper said if you hit someone in the tear duct with a .22 you've pretty much solved your problem.

[Vonz90]

As far as I know, the only civil jurisdiction in the United States that currently bans modern defensive ammo is New Jersey, though that may have changed.

HP ammo is "permitted by exclusion" in NJ. The asstards that be "allow" us to possess it at home and on the way to and from the range or hunting grounds. But heaven fofend you get caught w. a .22 HP round rolling around on your car floor as you are pulled over for talking on your cellie.

So that raises a question. Are there any good defensive pistol rounds made with a soft nose but not actually hollow point that would both expand (maybe partitioned, or something) but not run afoul of the hollow point police in such jurisdictions?

Not really a problem here, but just wondering.

[Greg]

As far as I know, the only civil jurisdiction in the United States that currently bans modern defensive ammo is New Jersey, though that may have changed.

HP ammo is "permitted by exclusion" in NJ. The asstards that be "allow" us to possess it at home and on the way to and from the range or hunting grounds. But heaven fofend you get caught w. a .22 HP round rolling around on your car floor as you are pulled over for talking on your cellie.

So that raises a question. Are there any good defensive pistol rounds made with a soft nose but not actually hollow point that would both expand (maybe partitioned, or something) but not run afoul of the hollow point police in such jurisdictions?

Not really a problem here, but just wondering.

Well at that point you need to find a launcher. NJ is may issue, in practice it's 'we don't issue'. So in practical terms any situation where you would get in trouble for having HP ammo, you'd also be in trouble for having a gun.

[MarkD]

HP ammo is "permitted by exclusion" in NJ. The asstards that be "allow" us to possess it at home and on the way to and from the range or hunting grounds. But heaven fofend you get caught w. a .22 HP round rolling around on your car floor as you are pulled over for talking on your cellie.

So that raises a question. Are there any good defensive pistol rounds made with a soft nose but not actually hollow point that would both expand (maybe partitioned, or something) but not run afoul of the hollow point police in such jurisdictions?

Not really a problem here, but just wondering.

Well at that point you need to find a launcher. NJ is may issue, in practice it's 'we don't issue'. So in practical terms any situation where you would get in trouble for having HP ammo, you'd also be in trouble for having a gun.

Uh huh. In practice it's an add-on charge, not only did you have a gun, but you had hollowpoint bullets too.

Since you can have them at home, and you can legally have a gun at home, if you shot someone in your with hollowpoints you'd be in extra trouble if they determined it wasn't a good shoot.

Of course not-a-good-shoot changes depending on just where you live in NJ, the skin colors of you and the person you shot, and whether he was just trying to turn his life around and would have done so had you just given him what he wanted. And also on whether the DA was trying to get his name in the paper. Or the mayor of your town. Or whether you'd given to either one's re-election campaign.