Arguing with Ogres

The place to talk about personal defense, preparedness, and survival; both armed and unarmed.
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Netpackrat
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Arguing with Ogres

Post by Netpackrat »

So, am I completely off-base here?

http://madogre.com/?p=6112#comments

I guess I must have missed the day in CCW class 20 years ago where they fitted us for cape and tights.
Cognosce teipsum et disce pati

"People come and go in our lives, especially the online ones. Some leave a fond memory, and some a bad taste." -Aesop
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JustinR
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by JustinR »

I don't think you are. "Moral obligation" is a pretty big brush to use. Would all of us here be happy we stopped a terrorist attack? Of course. But even as George said, METT considerations apply. I carry an SKS in my trunk with mixed soft point and Chinese steel core stuff in the primary mag because if such a situation ever arose....AND I was in a position to do so, I wouldn't be out-gunned. But the likelyhood of that scenario is extremely slim. I think it was Cooper that said you should use your handgun to fight your way to your rifle. If I'm taking incoming, I'm certainly going to return fire. Otherwise, since I'm no operator, I think the best course of action would normally be to wait outside on the phone with 911 in a position of cover with rifle, and have the initiative should said bad guy decide to leave the premises to look for more targets.

If I still have family or friends inside, the calculus changes.
"The armory was even better. Above the door was a sign: You dream, we build." -Mark Owen, No Easy Day

"My assault weapon won't be 'illegal,' it will be 'undocumented.'" -KL
Cobar
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by Cobar »

Nope, you have no legal obligation to get in a gunfight with anyone. I suppose that is excluding a militia call up.

Problem is he is arguing a moral duty, and that ends up being like an argument about opinions. We all have a different one.
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Kommander
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by Kommander »

Not a big fan of this guy if only because he spent years telling people the AR was cap only to turn around and start endorsing his own.
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Jericho941
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by Jericho941 »

Let’s say you are armed and some maniac comes in with an AK-47 and starts shooting up the place. You hear the shots, some people scream and chaos ensues. You help some folks out the back exit and they run to safety. Now, you are armed. You have a decision to make. Do you engage the threat or do you run away as well?
Nope, time to go. If my knowledge of the shooter's location consists entirely of hearing shots and screams somewhere in the mall (or wherever), I do not have enough situational awareness to go hunting. In other words, since I don't know what's going on outside of the room/exit area I'm in, I should just leave.
You are armed with a pistol such as say, a S&W Bodyguard .380… which is a popular Concealed Carry Pistol, and one that is quite good. The threat doesn’t know you are there and you know the building. Should you take action or should you retreat?

(snip)

Now let’s say you are armed with a SIG 229 in .357 SIG in that same situation. You have more capacity with a more accurate and more potent firearm. You have a greater chance of stopping that threat. Ending that rampage, or at least reducing that threat’s ability to rampage as effectively or freely. This situation swings in your favor so you have that choice to make. Do you stay and fight or do you withdraw?
Sorry, no. Going on offense is a "friends with long guns" situation, not a "SIG is just that awesome" situation. Trying to be John McClane is volunteering to be the grabbers' poster-boy for "herp derp good guy with gun doesn't work."
Now, I’m not talking about your average Joe Snuffy CCW Permit Holder. I’m talking about men and women who have take more advanced training and or have some good solid experience in shooting under stress. Former Military or Law Enforcement. That guys that shoot competitions. The guys that might actually have a chance of ending that terrorist. I’m talking about Sheepdogs. ... YOU have the moral obligation to fight.
Image

I am so sick of "sheepdog." But screw it, let's take that analogy and run with it.

In this scenario, the "sheepdog" has already performed his role by "helping people to the exits": he herded the "sheep" away from the threat. Now if he's still feeling protective, he needs to stick with the flock and make sure they make it all the way out. And once he's out, he stays out. A sheepdog that leaves the flock behind to go chase wolves in the woods is a terrible at his job, to say the least.
Call the cops, yes. But unless they are already there – you need to step up.
Nope. If I see the guy, that's one thing. But if I don't know what he looks like or exactly where he is, I won't be doing anyone any favors by charging off half-cocked and becoming another casualty.
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JKosprey
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by JKosprey »

Entirely dependent on the situation. If I can engage, you bet your ass I will. Am I going to go out of my way to do so? Probably not, unless a loved one is still inside or the shooter is between me and the exit.

As a medic I'm more inclined to start triage and medical care if possible. It may not be my job anymore, and I don't look so great in tights, but I have never been one to run from people needing help either.
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Netpackrat
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by Netpackrat »

Yeah, I think the whole sheepdog analogy is kind of idiotic.
Cognosce teipsum et disce pati

"People come and go in our lives, especially the online ones. Some leave a fond memory, and some a bad taste." -Aesop
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Weetabix
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by Weetabix »

I think you pegged it.
...they choose to be a helpless victim, then as Flint pointed out, my first duty is to remain alive to raise, protect, and provide for my own family.

If I died today, I have a 3 year old son who would only remember me dimly, and an 11 month old daughter who would remember Daddy not at all. I’d just as soon they not be raised by whatever replacement my wife eventually manages to find.

None of that automatically means I am going to run away, but if I have the opportunity to not engage in gunplay on behalf of people I don’t know, and many of whom would probably just as soon turn on me if I do step in to help, then that needs to be my default option.
This ^ has been my philosophy since I started carrying. Substitute older children now for me. My duty to my wife is a big consideration, too.

My life isn't mine to throw away since I accepted responsibility for them. It belongs to them until they're on their own and to my wife until one of us dies.

Then comes this:
If I can engage an active shooter or terrorist in such a manner as to stack the odds more heavily in my favor, then I’ll consider that as the situation dictates.
Note to self: start reading sig lines. They're actually quite amusing. :D
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JAG2955
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by JAG2955 »

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

If I have ANY tactical advantage, I will engage, even if it means re-entering the danger zone. If I'm cruising around the mall with a J-frame and two speed strips, I'm only going to engage if it's a single lone nut who is easily distracted by shooting others. If it's a bunch of Muslim terrorist assholes shooting up a mall, I'm going to do my solid best to get as many folks out of there without getting killed myself. If for some reason I'm walking through the mall on the way to a tactical 3-gun match with body armor, a ton of magazines, IFAK, and carbine, I'll stay to engage the entire Spetsnaz ninja division and hopefully exfil before getting ventilated.

All that goes out the window if my loved ones are in danger, in which case, I will give my life trying to kill any assailant with my dirty socks if that's all I'm left with. If I can get them to a safe place, I will do the same as above.
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randy
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Re: Arguing with Ogres

Post by randy »

In some ways this reminds my of a story discussed on KDT's old site. Where a person that prepared for disasters was told by his neighbors that they didn't need to prepare, they were coming to his house, and were outraged that he wouldn't support them in such a situation.

I carry for protection of my family, myself and my friends (most of whom do not need my protection). Protection of general society runs a distant 4th, and is highly dependent on the situation. Same as I would instantly use an available extinguisher to snuff a small fire or use a rope/pole to assist someone out of a stream, but I'm not engaging a full on house fire at flashover, or jumping into a fast running flood to rescue an adult stranger.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
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