Differences between the shooting and martial art communities

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Kommander
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Differences between the shooting and martial art communities

Post by Kommander »

Over on another thread Paw Paw refereed to something called a "brachial stun". Curious I tried to look it up and what I discovered something rather interesting. A number of people flatly refused to even discuss the technique, even for information purposes. Some even seemed unhappy that the uninitiated and/or untrained even knew about the technique. A few more helpful others offered to explain safer alternatives. Looking back on it this is not the first time I have noticed this kind of thing from the martial art community. Is there a real reason for it?

I can't imagine that happening in the shooting community. Sure we might tell you that something is too much gun, or inappropriate for a certain use, but we would never raise some sort of wall around information. The only time I see anything similar is with stuff regulated by the ATF IE making bombs and suppressors and the like, but that's more to avoid unpleasant encounters with federal law enforcement than anything. Has anyone else noticed this kind of thing or am I seeing something that does not exist.
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D5CAV
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by D5CAV »

I go to a hand-to-hand dojo about once a year vs. about once a quarter to a shooting class of some kind. Yeah, way too infrequently.

The instructors there are always willing to discuss dumb ideas I have, as well as suggest some interesting ideas of their own. The ones I've met seem to ascribe to some of the "US Army rules of Engagement", including "if it's stupid, but it works, it's not stupid" and "always cheat, always win, the only unfair fight is the one you lose."

"Gouge eye out of socket" and "pen in eye" were two techniques discussed a couple of years ago. I doubt "brachial stun" would be off the table.
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tfbncc
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by tfbncc »

I was taught the brachial stun technique in a concealed weapons class, of all places. The general idea being that violent response does not always mean you go straight to your carry piece if you can avoid it. Very practical teacher. Though he did give me a dirty look when I started giggling during the written exam. A question about what type of shotgun ammo would be suitable for home defense. One of the answers was "Dragon's Breath" flammable ammo. I had a vision of a homeowner firing off a DB round inside the house and then a scene of pandemonium as both good guys and bad guys went arse over teakettle trying to stomp out the fires. He did see the humor in that.
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PawPaw
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by PawPaw »

There are two main defensive tactics systems used nationwide by the vast majority of police agencies. Monadnock and PPCT. An academy instructor can certify a class on Manadnock in two days. With PPCT, it takes 40 hours. PPCT is a much more detailed system of unarmed self defense.

I was taught the brachial stun in a PPCT class, by the Louisiana Dept of Corrections. Along with a number of other stuns and pressure points that can be used to gain compliance. That's the only place I've ever seen it taught, along with other strikes used in unarmed defensive tactics. The problem with the bronchial stun is that it is a soft, empty hand technique. If you devolve to a hard, empty hand, or an impact weapon, you can kill your offender. IT IS FAIRLY EASY TO KILL A MAN USING THE BRACHIAL STUN. And yet, it's not a target often discussed in most literature simply because it isn't a place that you'd think o strike.

Monadnock doesn't teach it at all, because 1) Monadnock is for the simple-minded and 2) it's not a weapons strike. The site of the brachial stun is on the neck, which is a "red" area in Monadnock baton training. Most police agencies use the Monadnock system, because it is easy to teach and takes less training time.

One big difference between the shooting and the martial arts community, is that the martial artists carry less body fat.
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Kommander
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by Kommander »

PawPaw wrote:One big difference between the shooting and the martial arts community, is that the martial artists carry less body fat.
That's cause fats stops bullets better right? Seen plenty of guys at gun shows who would scoff at the FBIs 12" of penetration.
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randy
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by randy »

PawPaw wrote: The problem with the bronchial stun is that it is a soft, empty hand technique. If you devolve to a hard, empty hand, or an impact weapon, you can kill your offender. IT IS FAIRLY EASY TO KILL A MAN USING THE BRACHIAL STUN.
At my age, condition, and stage of life, if I'm in a close hand to hand fight it's because I can't get to my CCW piece/am in a prohibited area, so any fight is a fight for my life and I'm not particularly worried about the end state of the aggressor(s). IOW, if I'm in a situation to use such a technique, it's because I am unable to shoot the bastard while in fear of my life.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by MarkD »

His very first lesson to me was "If you can rip his fucking nuts off, do it"
The way my Dad taught me was "Grab on to something. Twist it. Pull it off."
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PawPaw
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by PawPaw »

A number of people flatly refused to even discuss the technique, even for information purposes.
That's because it's so damned easy to hurt someone badly, it's considered a technique that's almost lethal force and can be considered lethal force.

The brachial plexus is a nerve that basically ties your arms to your spinal cord. To find the target, place your index finger two inches below your earlobe, and press toward the center of your neck. Feel that pain? That's the brachial plexus. Don't push too long or you'll give yourself a headache. That nerve basically ties your brain stem to your arms. If you hit that spot with something soft, like a forearm, you set up a "forward fluid wave" that overloads that nerve with stimuli and the offender's arm goes numb for a few seconds. If you hit that spot with a closed fist, (0r an elbow, or the hard edge of the forearm) that shockwave goes to the brainstem, and overloads it with stimuli, and the offender passes out.

If you strike that spot with a weapon, like a baton, or a walking cane, you're liable to cause permanent damage or death, which is why Monadnock makes that area a red area on their strike chart. Mondadnock considers it lethal force to hit that area with a weapon. It's lethal force, just like shooting him.

That's why folks don't like to discuss it, and many of the certifying agencies don't teach it. When PPCT teaches it, they teach it very carefully, with a lot of emphasis on justification. As a sworn officer, I've got to be fairly high on the force continuum to use that strike, certainly higher than what is required to use pepper spray, or a taser.
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Yogimus
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by Yogimus »

Any fight over 1 minute means everyone involved lost.
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Kommander
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Re: Differences between the shooting and martial art communi

Post by Kommander »

PawPaw wrote:
A number of people flatly refused to even discuss the technique, even for information purposes.
That's because it's so damned easy to hurt someone badly, it's considered a technique that's almost lethal force and can be considered lethal force.

If you strike that spot with a weapon, like a baton, or a walking cane, you're liable to cause permanent damage or death, which is why Monadnock makes that area a red area on their strike chart. Mondadnock considers it lethal force to hit that area with a weapon. It's lethal force, just like shooting him.

That's why folks don't like to discuss it, and many of the certifying agencies don't teach it. When PPCT teaches it, they teach it very carefully, with a lot of emphasis on justification. As a sworn officer, I've got to be fairly high on the force continuum to use that strike, certainly higher than what is required to use pepper spray, or a taser.
Meanwhile we in the shooting community are happy to give tons of advise regarding an even more lethal form of force. That's what I don't get. I have helped absolute newbies to the firearms world acquire vastly more lethal force then a simple neck chop, given them basic technical/legal instruction, and then encouraged them to get more professional training. By martial arts standards I am an irresponsible asshat likely to get someone killed. However the shooting community considers what I have done to be good and vital for the continuation of shooting culture, and therefore the protection of some measure of freedom in this country.
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