Yachts and guns

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D5CAV
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Yachts and guns

Postby D5CAV » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:54 pm

I'm not much of a boat person. I have friends who have yachts, and those friends are gun people, so their yachts usually have some form of stainless steel or chrome plated long gun on board.

I'll ask them next time I see them, but this news item got me wondering: https://www.yahoo.com/news/philippine-i ... 49219.html

So German guy is on a yacht with his girlfriend. He sails near Somalia, not something I'd do unless I had a couple of .50 BMGs on my boat, and gets captured by Somali pirates. He and his girlfriend are held hostage for 2 months and freed after paying some large sum in ransom.

He continues his sailing trip. This time he gets captured by Muslim pirates off the Philippines. His GF gets killed and he gets captured. I guess his bank account was already depleted by his 2 months vacation in Somalia, so he didn't have the money to pay to save his head (so to speak).

If I have a registered MG in Florida, and set sail on my boat, what jurisdiction does ATF have once I sail out of the Florida Keys? As long as I don't dock in NYC, I'm in international waters.

So, if I have some death wish to go sail past Somalia, who cares if I happen to have a couple of M2HBs in a locker ready to stick on tripods on my bow and stern?

I'm thinking I could buy a lot of MGs and ammo vs. paying out a $600,000 ransom.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Denis » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:58 pm

I believe that most flag states treat vessels flying their flag as extensions of their national territory, regardless of where they happen to be. For example, if you were to commit a murder in international waters while aboard your US-flagged vessel, US law would probably apply to the investigation and to any charges.

By analogy, I suspect that BATFE would purport to continue to have jurisdiction over your MG once you pass the Florida Keys.

On the other hand, sailing pirate-infested waters without protection (at a minimum both the right hardware and kidnap insurance) is foolhardy, as those late Germans found out.

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby randy » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:44 pm

This thread brings back my longing for an MV Guncounter cruise....

A point of contention I have with FIL is that during their round-the-world cruise a few years ago, he mentioned how seriously the cruise line took piracy. They had (unarmed) lookouts and some sort of sonic annoyance device ready to go when they went through various infested straits in the Indonesia area.

My contention is that since they weren't mounting Ma-Dueces or miniguns, they were not really serious about it, just window dressing to keep the marks on board quiet.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby BDK » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:46 pm

A) Cruise ships are pretty mum about security but ships masters have "interesting" laws about being armed.

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby McClarkus » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:27 am

Sorry to hear of his demise but I had to wonder whey he went back out for round #2.......
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Jered » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:21 am

Carronades aren't considered "firearms" are they?

...and grapeshot is devastatingly effective.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Aaron » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:29 am

Now days your average cruise ship has a half dozen or so no shit trigger pullers and a dozen so other crew members with firearms training and appropriate hardware to match. At least that's what I was told when a an ex-mil friend pitched a job to me. As has been said, they keep that very much on the down low.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Termite » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:19 pm

BDK wrote:A) Cruise ships are pretty mum about security .......


I suspect it's much like the Big Mouse's security in Florida.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Steamforger » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:55 pm

I would think, with his preference for sailing around Somalia, that he would have access to MGs on the cheap.

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Malthorn » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:04 am

Who was standing watch in the pirate infested waters? Him or his girlfriend.

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby BDK » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:29 am

I forgot to mention a cruise ship is also a rather fast vessel, and very large of it decides to run over a smaller one

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Jered » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:37 am

BDK wrote:I forgot to mention a cruise ship is also a rather fast vessel, and very large of it decides to run over a smaller one


How many carronades can you put on a cruise ship?

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Steamforger » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:39 am

Quote from the Old Man (a Vietnam era A-6 driver)

Yes, you gun crew guys are supposed to call gun control to ask permission to fire on a target. If you do you aren't getting an answer because I'll be busy running that sonofabitch over with 42,000 tons doing 30 mph

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Windy Wilson » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:39 pm

I can't find the source, now, because I'm at work and supposed to be working.

When you, as John Q. Citizen of the USA, sail into a foreign harbor, you are under their jurisdiction, and they (and you) will do whatever their regulations say to do when someone sails into their port. If you have a firearm, their laws control. You may have to deposit it with the Harbormaster, a la Dodge City in the days of the cattle drives, or they may require that you keep it aboard your ship locked in a dedicated compartment/drawer/closet, maybe with one of their locks. They won't be particularly happy, even if you are otherwise peaceful looking and non threatening. This will go double if it's a scary looking firearm with a happy switch. Shotguns are less threatening, but they still won't want them loose in their port with potentially boisterous sailors potentially getting drunk and potentially cutting loose and potentially celebrating with stuff that goes bang.

As a tangentially relevant piece of trivia, on Anacapa Island, one of Southern California's Channel Islands, there is a lighthouse, the keeper's house, and a water tank. The story is that the tank is built inside a building that looks like a church, with church window-like cutouts on the side, because in the first half of the 20th century, yachtsmen would sail past, and with the rifles they kept for shooting the sharks that would eat their game fish before they could get them on board, shoot the water tank. Supposedly making it look like a church was an effective subterfuge.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby First Shirt » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:55 pm

Steamforger wrote:Quote from the Old Man (a Vietnam era A-6 driver)

Yes, you gun crew guys are supposed to call gun control to ask permission to fire on a target. If you do you aren't getting an answer because I'll be busy running that sonofabitch over with 42,000 tons doing 30 mph


And I would be totally okay with that! What does that work out to, in ft-lbs of energy?
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Steamforger » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:12 am

126628000 give or take a few if I got my conversions right.

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby First Shirt » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:15 am

Steamforger wrote:126628000 give or take a few if I got my conversions right.


Damn! That should be enough for anything short of a 688-class sub!
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Netpackrat » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:29 am

D5CAV wrote:I'm not much of a boat person. I have friends who have yachts,


Having friends with boats is generally superior to having one of your own, anyway.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby MarkD » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:55 pm

Netpackrat wrote:
D5CAV wrote:I'm not much of a boat person. I have friends who have yachts,


Having friends with boats is generally superior to having one of your own, anyway.


Yup. The two happiest days of a man's life, when he buys his boat, and when he sells his boat. A boat being a.hole in the water you dump money into.

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby MiddleAgedKen » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:36 am

MarkD wrote:Yup. The two happiest days of a man's life, when he buys his boat, and when he sells his boat. A boat being a.hole in the water you dump money into.


Beat me to it. :) I do love to sail, though.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby HTRN » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:10 am

MiddleAgedKen wrote:
MarkD wrote:Yup. The two happiest days of a man's life, when he buys his boat, and when he sells his boat. A boat being a.hole in the water you dump money into.


Beat me to it. :) I do love to sail, though.

Boat is an acronym - bring out another thousand. :ugeek: :lol:

Still want a seaark flat bottom tunnel hull with a jet drive though..
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Guncrazy » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Yachts and fleets of cheap drones rigged with high explosives or incendiaries...

Would this actually be more complicated than I think?

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby BDK » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:05 am

A) Scramblers

B) Very peeved ATF

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Guncrazy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:51 pm

BDK wrote:A) Scramblers

B) Very peeved ATF


Neither seem to be very relevant when luring pirates off the coasts of third world countries, or in international waters. Especially when you're already armed with machine guns.

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby henrybowman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:25 am

So odd question, any reason why you would NOT be able to bring it back into the nation? Could they claim you are "importing" it as a cop out?

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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby blackeagle603 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:38 pm

Bought a 12' SUP used in early June. Been out on it 2x a week since then without fail. Took it up as next stage of back therapy. It's worked wonders for my hips and ability to jump to my feet (burpee, jumping up on regular surf board). The amount of upper body workout and cardio was unexpected plus. I dig in and sustain it pretty good for 20-30 minutes. This morning (roof to water to back on the roof rack) was 32 minutes, 134bpm average, 153bpm peak. 31:26 of that time was above my age bracket's aerobic threshold. Still got a warm buzz, elevated metabolism feeling going several hours later.

Anyway, I've been spending a lot of time on Mission Bay and sometimes (like today) paddling in the morning along Harbor Drive marina.

Two things in mind from this:
1. I've got a wee itch to get a kayak for longer runs and bumpier open water and the thought of rooftop sailboat or small trailered boat is pretty appealing. Loved sailing on a small lake in summers as a kid.

2. I see business opportunities all through those moorages. Maintenance, repair, interiors/upholstery. Lots of little businesses in view, running out of the back of a van or truck.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Netpackrat » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:31 pm

blackeagle603 wrote: I've got a wee itch to get a kayak for longer runs and bumpier open water and the thought of rooftop sailboat or small trailered boat is pretty appealing. Loved sailing on a small lake in summers as a kid.


Blackeagle, once I get my shop cleaned up and organized somewhat, I am going to build one of these for the kids:

https://bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=D5

Been busy trying to get as much outside/yard work done as possible before the snow hits, so I haven't done much more than buy parts and supplies for it so far. They have a bunch of different small sailboats on that site, in a variety of sizes. There are a couple of free plans versions of the one I linked, too.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Jered » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:51 am

In answer to the OP, shoot, sink, and shut-up.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby blackeagle603 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:23 am

Blackeagle, once I get my shop cleaned up and organized somewhat, I am going to build one of these for the kids


Rowed one of those around a lot as a kid. Never had one rigged to sail but see regattas of them in MIssion Bay -- young-uns starting off racing.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Netpackrat » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:14 am

blackeagle603 wrote:
Blackeagle, once I get my shop cleaned up and organized somewhat, I am going to build one of these for the kids


Rowed one of those around a lot as a kid. Never had one rigged to sail but see regattas of them in MIssion Bay -- young-uns starting off racing.


Those are probably Optimist class boats that you see.... Also known as the world's slowest racing yacht. The one I am going to build is more of a general purpose boat, though I may borrow a few parts, here and there.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby blackeagle603 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:33 pm

Those are probably Optimist class boats that you see...


Sabots...
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Windy Wilson » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:31 pm


Yep, Sabots. Cat rigged, no way to trim sail, big enough for a man and a small boy, or two medium sized boys. Took two men to haul it down to the water from the parking lot.
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Except the school teacher and the commercial artist, each of whom told me individually at a later time that he knew he could never finish it on his own, so he stuck around to help Dad finish his, so he'd finish theirs. I remember sailing with them at Mother's Beach in Marina del Rey. Such scuzzy water, I felt sorry for Hoyle Schweitzer who was inventing a way to sail his windsurfer there about the same time (how close I was to stardom!).
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Netpackrat » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:26 am

Interesting, learn something new every day. Apparently the Sabot is another one-design class of similar size to the Opti, but rather than being a worldwide thing, they are mainly prevalent in SoCal, where they originated. The Sabot design is a few years older, and thus had time to get established in the local area, so the Optimist (which started on the east coast and is now a worldwide thing) has been slow to make inroads there. Per some of what I was just reading, the Sabot is somewhat more affordable since the pressure of national and international competition has inflated Opti costs a lot (at least if you want to be competitive).

Neither boat really seems to fit what I am trying to achieve, although the Sabot is a lot closer. I'm mainly trying to build something for the kids to have fun in and learn to sail, that later on can be used as a tender for a bigger boat if we (or they) decide to get one. The way these things tend to go, I will probably end up building two, but at least the stitch and glue building method is a relatively fast way to build a boat.

My only sailing experience consists of a week's sailing merit badge course at Scout camp as a teenager, so it's going to be a learning (and re-learning) process for me, as well.
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Re: Yachts and guns

Postby Netpackrat » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:59 am

So, I had a thought about this... It is common for boaters to carry flares and flare launchers, for signalling in case of emergencies. In the US specifically, 37mm flare launchers are perfectly legal to own, so long as one does not have any anti-personnel rounds for it. If you want to play that game, you have to register it as a destructive device and pay the $200 tax, and I think that each such anti-personnel round also must be registered with its own $200 tax stamp.

So, the big question is how do other countries treat the 37mm flare gun? Is it a weapon, or a signalling device? If the latter, then it would be a normal piece of kit likely to be found aboard any vessel. In that case, file your Forms 1 to turn your 37mm launcher into a Destructive Device, and create however many anti-personnel rounds you may require (I never said this would be cheap). Now you have an anti-pirate device that is perfectly legal to own, although if tooling around in US waters you will likely need to file a Form 20 for interstate transport and be sure to visit only DD friendly states.

Once in international waters, after you have passed through the pirate-infested area, and before you enter the waters of a jurisdiction that approves of flare launchers but not of weapons, the anti-personnel rounds go over the side, along with whatever hard copies of your NFA paperwork that you were carrying. Flare launcher goes back into the signalling kit, and as far as local customs is concerned, your flare gun for some reason has the name of a trust (which perhaps also owns your yacht) and your home port engraved upon it. Possibly there are even a number of flare casings similarly marked, which are either empty, or have been loaded with actual flares. I doubt they will have any clue as to the significance of any of that, as long as the launcher and flares are legal there to begin with.

So, what kind of rounds could one create for their DD-registered flare gun? At the very least, you could have a big honking shotgun, and I will note that lead sinkers for fishing are a common item aboard boats the world over. Second, the precursor materials for a thermite incendiary are similarly unremarkable, and I'm sure there are other possibilities. For that matter the actual 37mm flares probably wouldn't do a pirate vessel any good, given 3rd world maintenance standards and the likelihood of there being fuel in their bilges that could be ignited. Chamber inserts for actual rifle cartridges are also a possibility, and could be created cheaply enough that having to toss them overboard wouldn't be the end of the world, financially.
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