Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

[Aglifter]

If I can find it, and you want it, I have a book on medieval weapons you might like, HS - it was one of those, I'm sure self-published, "life works" of a collector of such things.

He mentioned, at least the early swords, were made of heated pieces because they couldn't get their forges hot enough to properly work the steel - and that's why the old Sagas mentioned digging up great swords from graves, etc - the Roman-era ones were superior.

I think he was talking about an earlier era, though - since he also mentioned a fighter at the time would never clash his sword against that of another, and would use a shield to block instead, because there was an excellent chance that one, or both of the blades would break.

At least, if I recall the information correctly, I read it... maybe 13 years ago...

[Erik]

Any questions my lord Bloodaxe ?

I honestly had no idea Viking swords were that complicated. My impression was that they made the simplest style of sword they could think of that would accomplish the goal of killing things.

Most description I've ever heard of Vikings doesn't really point to any higher degree of sofistication, they are frequently described as rough men and brutes, and as uncivilized savages.
But they were undoubtedly good at what they were doing, so I guess it shouldn't be much of a surprise that they were good craftsmen that could make good blades as well as good boats.

[MarkD]

Any questions my lord Bloodaxe ?

I honestly had no idea Viking swords were that complicated. My impression was that they made the simplest style of sword they could think of that would accomplish the goal of killing things.

Most description I've ever heard of Vikings doesn't really point to any higher degree of sofistication, they are frequently described as rough men and brutes, and as uncivilized savages.
But they were undoubtedly good at what they were doing, so I guess it shouldn't be much of a surprise that they were good craftsmen that could make good blades as well as good boats.

Consider who did most of the writing about Vikings, their victims.

[Aglifter]

Vikings traded, at least, from the Middle East* to the Americas, founded Dublin, conquered most of England and Coastal France and a decent chunk of Russia.

They were the most seagoing people of their era.

*They are found with Chinese artifacts on a regular basis, but that's usually presumed to be due to Middle East trade more than direct trade w. the Chinese.

[SeekHer]

First thing guys, there were no such people as Vikings there were Danes who went a viking (journey to raid)...Did the Britons pay Viking Geld or Dane Geld...Also they settled, raided and traded from Moscow and the Crimea (Black Sea) to Greenland and down the coast of Africa and into Newfoundland to Maine and Vermont...It is stated that Leningrad (St. Petersburg) was actually a Danish trade site before the Rus turned it into one of their towns.

Comparing steel technology of the 500 AD to 1000 AD Northmen and the fighting styles derived from that to 1500 AD to 1700 AD Japanese is ludicrous--Iron helmets, boiled leather and chaine maille and huge shields against boiled leather with a few metal pieces worked in...The major reason for that is simple--Japan didn't have sufficient metal to draw from and the isolationism of the island further hampered technology getting there.

Anybody heard the controversy over Damascus not being Damascus or that Wootz is better steel--Bullshit to both…Dual density metal (Wootz) was practised in India because they also didn’t have great reserves of a single iron ore which technology Alexander of Macedonia—remember they were just out of the bronze age themselves—brought to Europe and left the Iberian falcata style sword for the Nepalese to turn into a kukhri…When the Moors ruled southern Spain they brought with them their Damascus steel which became Toledo steel but dual metal steel had been around for a 1,000 years by this time which the Danes helped to make it into northern Europe for the Germanic tribes to work which makes it’s way into central Europe where iron ore was plentiful and eventually leads to plate armour…Wow, two thousand plus years of metallurgy in one paragraph.

How could Japanese steel or Indian Wootz steel or Irish/Danish Bog steel be superior to anything produced today with our controlled burn, clean fired cruciform, and if nothing else the improvements due to chemistry from a wood fired, open aired smithy getting ashes, cinders, leaves and insects into the mix…There was a study on the “ The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades” that brought this to light.

Also, most European swords were dull when knights and men at arms fought each other…The intention was to beat the armour so the dents hindered further movement or pound the helmet knocking them senseless and then finish them off with a dagger through the eye slit or work the blade under the armpit to stab into the heart or under the codpiece to sever the arteries in the Arch …Why lots of war hammers and halberd pikes were used…Encounters against infantry, when you have a knight mounted on a 1,500 lb destrier travelling at 20+ mph swinging a 2+ lb steel bar against a non armoured head, face or rib cage and they connect there is one thing that’s certain, the churls coming after the mounted wouldn’t have to put too many of those hit out of their misery.

Highspeed – This Jew’s uncle picked up a Hitler Youth Knife in France that the handle had gotten broken and partially burnt off, he replaced with a piece of 2x4 and shaped to fit with sandpaper and broken glass for a scraper that he used for Passover Seder and Sabbath night but is now seldom used by his asshole son because it has “Swastikas” on it and might offend his friends…Who fucking better to use it or piss on it, either way, who better?

I also had three uncles (two survived) who enjoyed the Japanese’s hospitality after the fall of Hong Kong and Singapore who lived to see the Japanese products and especially cars coming to North America—wouldn’t buy them, hated anyone who did and would refuse to ride in one—Granted this was when America still had an electronics, television, small appliance etc. industry that they could utilize instead…When Chrysler was taken over by Mercedes immediately half my family that owned them traded them in for GM…They’d never buy a Ford.

Kung Fu, Tai Kwon Do, Karate etc. are no longer fighting styles but ritualistic, rule bound sports that do offer great conditioning though and those styles that came from them like Aikido are in the same boat—rule bound! My youngest daughter is going, again, for her 3rd black belt in TKD at the end of this month as it seems she improvised a few moves the last time and that is verboten…The sport is there so that those who don’t know how to fight can better defend themselves against those who don’t know how to fight as well…Those and other styles that got adopted by the various militaries—Russian Spetsnaz, US Green Berets or Marines, Israeli Krav Maga, Brazilian Ju Jitsu are far better for real life encounters...What’s worked for me a few times in a pub fight is a pint stein full of beer into the antagonists face followed by the pint stein full into the antagonists face.

[HTRN]

Comparing steel technology of the 500 AD to 1000 AD Northmen and the fighting styles derived from that to 1500 AD to 1700 AD Japanese is ludicrous--Iron helmets, boiled leather and chaine maille and huge shields against boiled leather with a few metal pieces worked in...The major reason for that is simple--Japan didn't have sufficient metal to draw from and the isolationism of the island further hampered technology getting there.

Yup - weapons are a product of their environment. Japan was very iron poor, so what little they had generally went into weapons. They couldn't afford to waste it on armor. so they used boiled leather - hence the Katana, a nice sharp blade capable of slicing or stabbing through it. Put that same blade up against full plate, and you'll have a dead samurai. It simply isn't capable of standing up to the hacking need to get past it. The Japanese methodology for making swords also reflects this, as what iron ore they have, is pretty crappy. So they pull every trick in the book to make the idea weapon to get the weapon they needed. Of course, being Japanese, over the course of time, every step became ritualized.

As for the Steel.. In the last 6 decades, the introduction of the Oxygen method, and the expansion of the Electric Arc Furnace from niche technique to industry standard, have both increased quality and decreased cost. Steel from the 1970s is, quite frankly better than Steel made before the war. Incidentally, part of the reason why big steel in the US went under, was because they were slow out of the gate to adopt both methods, allowing Europe and Japan to gain market share rapidly post war with better, cheaper steel.

[Erik]

First thing guys, there were no such people as Vikings there were Danes who went a viking (journey to raid)...Did the Britons pay Viking Geld or Dane Geld...Also they settled, raided and traded from Moscow and the Crimea (Black Sea) to Greenland and down the coast of Africa and into Newfoundland to Maine and Vermont...It is stated that Leningrad (St. Petersburg) was actually a Danish trade site before the Rus turned it into one of their towns.

I have to disagree here. Vikings were certainly not only Danes. Vikings were Scandinavians, from present day Denmark, Sweden and Norway. The Vikings that attacked England were probably mostly Danes and Norwegians, simply because of geography. But since neither of those countries existed back then, it's probably meaningless to speak of "Danish" Vikings in any other sense than their home base was in present day Denmark. The Vikings that went to Russia probably came mostly from Sweden, also for geographic reasons. It's hard to tell for sure, but it is known that one of the most famous expeditions into Russia was led by a king from the Stockholm area.
The term "dane geld" probably originated the way it sounds, as money paid to a viking king from present day Denmark. But the phrase was then used for all such money, regardless from where the viking that got it came. (There's rune stones in Sweden where getting dane geld is mentioned).

For instance, the Vikings that battled at Stamford Bridge in 1066 was from present day Norway, and Leif Eriksson that is credited as the first viking in North America was from Iceland, though his family most likely came from Norway.

[Netpackrat]

Erik, I've got your new forum avatar right here. 8^)

hagar.jpg

[SeekHer]

My point wasn't about from where they came: Greenland, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Finland or Denmark since they really didn't exist back then but the fact they weren't--since there was never any country called--Viking.

Read the histories and they were called the Norsewere (Northmen) not Vikings...They were called Danes because at the time there weren't any countries up there in Scandinavia and it was cheaper to pay them their Dane geld then have them raid Ireland and what became Wales and Scotland and England.

We show Leif, son of Eric, as being a Gronlander (Greenlander) from Iceland or as an Icelander from Greenland...We have here in Manitoba the largest concentration of Icelanders outside of Iceland around the towns of Gimli to Hecla Island on Lake Winnipeg and inland to Arborg and Eriksdale--the Interlake region.

Lots of the warriors on the boats were from the northern most regions of what would later be called Germany, France and Russia and the southern raiding or trading spots called them all the same thing since there were no country border(s) per se but only tribal and the early raiders attacked mostly the very end of the Roman era towns and military training and weapons…There was no Switzerland but Helvetia; Germanium, Gaul, Briton where tribal lands.

http://historymedren.about.com/library/ ... rmanic.htm old school map

http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf great history of Jutland, Denmark from Bronze age

http://mirrorh.com/timelinead2.html excellent timeline 600 to 1200+

http://www.odinsvolk.ca/GermanicPeoples.htm History of the Germanic peoples
Quote:
The Vikings were merchants and traders (and of course, pirates) from Scandinavia and Northern Europe. The Vikings were Germanic people, like the Goths, Vandals, and the Saxon. Norsemen is the name of the people of the areas, which today are Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Holland and northern Germany. Other names include Danes, Northmen, Norsemen, Germanians and Normans. In Russia and the Byzantine Empire, the Vikings were known as Varangians (Væringjar, meaning "sworn men"), and the Scandinavian bodyguards of the Byzantine emperors were known as the Varangian Guard.
Normans was just a shortening of Norsemen.

[Erik]

Erik, I've got your new forum avatar right here. 8^)

So let it be written,
so let it be done.


I'll try it out for a while.
I'm happy it wasn't Lucky Eddie