Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

The place to talk about knives, swords, edged weapons, sticks and impact weapons, restraints, and and the techniques and tools for preparedness and survival without firearms.
Greg
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Re: Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

Post by Greg »

Highspeed wrote:
Aglifter wrote:Well, "martial arts" created by people who slaughtered their way to power might be expected to be a bit more results focused... (That gymnastics was created as a form of training/exercise for a medieval knight does put things into perspective...)
Every time I have seen oriental martial arts practised on the street it has been a disaster for the individual trying to employ it, without exception.

I once got into a fight with three guys and when the ringleader dropped into a Taekwondo stance I knew that I was home and dry.
He stood there with his fists at his sides and his legs apart, so I just kicked him in the nuts and punched him to the floor, it would have been rude not to :D He was lucky my worthless speedfreak ex-girlfriend ( stupid bitch ) had taken my brass knuckles off me beforehand or his head would be a totally different shape now.

Karate, Taekwondo, Kung Fu, it's all bullshit. All it does is turn people who can't fight into fit, motivated individuals who still can't fight.
It completely depends on the particular school. Some are for show - fitness, competition, etc - some are for go. You probably don't have enough Koreans where you are, but where I grew up the TKD schools that the working class Korean immigrants sent their kids to, to prepare them to survive living and working in maybe not-so-good areas... could get very nasty, and were focused on real-world application.

Oh and you were fighting a moron, because the very first most basic stance they teach you makes it more or less impossible for you to get kicked in the balls. And the first, most basic rule of any kind of competition- *anything* works against idiots.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
Greg
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Re: Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

Post by Greg »

Jericho941 wrote: There's a big difference between "overrated" and "useless." Bushido was comparable to other medieval warrior philosophies, no better or worse. The code of chivalry is comparable: It was the way the warrior nobility were expected to live. Chivalry was also full of utter bullshit and codes of honor. The only reason why we roll our eyes and sigh when we say "chivalry is dead" is because it died completely, as opposed to bushido, which was revived in a hijacked form in the early 20th century and made out to be something it wasn't. It'd be like pointing at a zombie and saying "That guy's a total asshole." Well, yeah, but he didn't have any choice in the matter. He'd been dead for awhile before that happened.
Several hundred years of isolation with nobody to fight, it all became politics of various degrees of dirty- is going to turn anybody overly formalized and useless. At best, prominent samurai families maintained an ethic of service and leadership- they came to produce more scientists and business leaders than actual fighters.

And very good point about how "bushido" was recast in a horrible corrupted form as a tool to motivate the masses (really a LOT like the theory behind actual Fascism). The new men who took over in the 20's and 30's were essentially hopped up peasants inflamed with deranged nearly-Fascist ideology.
I don't know what is driving me to go to bat for the medieval Japanese beyond general disgust with Spartan and Viking worship, but what the hell.
Wanting to get things right? Dunno.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
toad
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Re: Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

Post by toad »

I remember watching a TV show on the making of a Japanese sword. The most interesting thing to me was how during one part of the process the sword maker would use grass to add carbon to a blade. He'd pat the bundle up an down the blade and it would burn then he'd hammer pound the ashes into the blade. Then fold it. Tricksy timing involved. One problem with Japanese sword fighting has been the influence of Kendo. They don't use steel or even solid wooden blades. It is a sport with judges and rules and stuff. You have to really hunt to find a Kenjutsu school or instructor in this area anyway.
I'd hesitate to mess with some of the Okinawan martial arts. At least one school trains to take hits and at least one of them has grabs, grips, and throws in the inventory.
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308Mike
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Re: Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

Post by 308Mike »

toad wrote:I remember watching a TV show on the making of a Japanese sword. The most interesting thing to me was how during one part of the process the sword maker would use grass to add carbon to a blade. He'd pat the bundle up an down the blade and it would burn then he'd hammer pound the ashes into the blade. Then fold it. Tricksy timing involved. One problem with Japanese sword fighting has been the influence of Kendo. They don't use steel or even solid wooden blades. It is a sport with judges and rules and stuff. You have to really hunt to find a Kenjutsu school or instructor in this area anyway.
I'd hesitate to mess with some of the Okinawan martial arts. At least one school trains to take hits and at least one of them has grabs, grips, and throws in the inventory.
The documentary I saw showed them using a bundle of STRAW (or perhaps damp straw) to brush across the red-hot blade, creating carbon ash to be pounded into the blade, and what we saw was quite a bit of carbon ash created by the straw brushing, which stuck to the blade and hung around for the refolding and pounding of the blade. And when done EACH TIME, this created and incredible grade of steel of strength and hardness, especially when combined with their hardening and tempering process. This whole process created blades of great steel, of varying degrees of hardness and softness to create an incredible fighting blade.

The problem was that the process was so incredibly subjective and not recorded in any degree to create the same blades in any amount, it was almost useless - as EVERY SINGLE BLADE which was hand-made had no other equal. There was NO WAY to copy a GREAT blade and no way to simply eliminate a crap blade. EVERY blade-smith created their own blades, and no two were alike (for good or bad).

This is why the identifying 'smith's name/identity stamped into the blade tang is so damned important (as is the rust under the tang, which indicated the finished grade of steel of that particular blade - the fineness of the rust indicates a LOT of information about the quality of steel of the blade - NEVER wipe the rust off the tang!!!).
POLITICIANS & DIAPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON

A person properly schooled in right and wrong is safe with any weapon. A person with no idea of good and evil is unsafe with a knitting needle, or the cap from a ballpoint pen.

I remain pessimistic given the way BATF and the anti gun crowd have become tape worms in the guts of the Republic. - toad
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Highspeed
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Re: Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

Post by Highspeed »

The program was wrong about the straw.

It's used in two ways - one in the form of ash, which acts as a flux when the billet is folded and welded.

The bundle of straw is actually part of a process called wet forging. The smith keeps the hammer in a tub of water and uses the bundle of wet straw to dampen the face of the anvil. This makes the fire scale on the blade 'explode' from the surface, meaning it doesn't get hammered in during forging. Basically it makes for less grinding work when forging is complete.
Like many Japanese techniques it's simple in concept but tricky in practice. If you cool the steel too quickly with the water it will crack ( ask me how I know ;) )

Adjusting the carbon content of the steel is actually done in the forge and is called orishigane. Depending on where the billet is placed in the fire it will either gain carbon from the charcoal around it or lose it in an oxidising process. The bladesmith judges the carbon content by touching the billet to a grinding wheel and viewing the shape, colour and intensity of the sparks produced.
He's looking to get something like 0.6 or 0.7 percent carbon, all by eye. Pretty amazing really. I can tell certain grades of steel apart using the sparks as a guide, but percentage of carbon ? that's just voodoo :)
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Aglifter
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Re: Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

Post by Aglifter »

AKA, many hours of staring at sparks... (Look up chick sexing for another example...)
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toad
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Re: Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

Post by toad »

Just for grins, back when I had some energy, I wished I'd tried to make an Aztec sword and see how well the draw cut worked with it.
If I could get some brave lads to see how long an Aztec with his obsidian chip holder could hold up against Toledo steel it would be interesting.
The Wootz steel is interesting in that they were making it in India into the 19th century and used a number of different process. Wrought iron in crucibles with organics added to infuse carbon, silica from the crucibles themselves and the most interesting to me wrought iron with cast iron heated together. I really wish they'd kept better records.
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