Paging HS - Interesting Jap Sword Site

[308Mike]

To be honest, I think I'd rather have an Italian longsword just to annoy people who say katanas are so much better.

The Japanese sword fighting 'arts' are enough to make a cat laugh. I'm amazed by the amount of people who fall for that bullshit blend of mysticism and spend hours upon hours walking up and down repeating strikes at unresponsive targets and call it training for war.

What the hell is the point in having a ritual for drawing the sword ? or putting it back into the saya ( scabbard ) ?

I was a member of a medieval re-enactment society years ago ( not like those SCA pussies, we were hardcore ) and we fought with live steel.

Believe me, any Japanese sword dude would have lasted about 2 seconds flat with us unless he got the first shot ( Which he wouldn't have done because he'd be too focused on respecting the sword, his opponent and the fucking cherry blossoms probably )

Which is why the Ninja were despised in the "traditional Japanese" manner simply 'cause they didn't act like, or respond to the old traditional BUSHIDO (Samurai) ways (some would say: Bushido = BULLSHIT and MUCH MORE energy focused on ceremony rather than REAL combat scenarios), and adhering to their "Ethics". Most Samurai were far more worried about "Honor and Ceremony" rather than if they actually WON the battle, as long as their "Ethics" were involved & followed.

Where-as: Ninja's were only after one thing - VICTORY!! They weren't concerned about ethics or ceremony, they wanted to WIN regardless of how they went about it!!

Now, consider one of those SAMURAI swords in the hands of a Ninja!! Someone who had no worries about adhering to "Traditional Technique" would be MUCH more dangerous with such a blade (Katana) than someone sworn and bound to trying to retain their techniques and BATTLE ETHICS ("ethics"??? WTF???? You WIN, by ANY means possible and let the loser worry about ETHICS!!).

REMEMBER, the WINNER writes the history, NOT the LOSER. Win the war and THEN WRITE WHAT YOU WANT!!

It's always been that way, and will likely be that way in the future!!

[Jericho941]

My ancestors could beat up your ancestors.

[Highspeed]

Well, "martial arts" created by people who slaughtered their way to power might be expected to be a bit more results focused... (That gymnastics was created as a form of training/exercise for a medieval knight does put things into perspective...)

Every time I have seen oriental martial arts practised on the street it has been a disaster for the individual trying to employ it, without exception.

I once got into a fight with three guys and when the ringleader dropped into a Taekwondo stance I knew that I was home and dry.
He stood there with his fists at his sides and his legs apart, so I just kicked him in the nuts and punched him to the floor, it would have been rude not to He was lucky my worthless speedfreak ex-girlfriend ( stupid bitch ) had taken my brass knuckles off me beforehand or his head would be a totally different shape now.

Karate, Taekwondo, Kung Fu, it's all bullshit. All it does is turn people who can't fight into fit, motivated individuals who still can't fight.

[308Mike]

Karate, Taekwondo, Kung Fu, it's all bullshit. All it does is turn people who can't fight into fit, motivated individuals who still can't fight.

That's why MMA, KickBoxing, and other contact sports actually MEAN something. I don't know how many times I've been against a "Black Belt" and tossed him to the floor - but I have also run into those who KNOW what they're doing and you'd never know they were martial artists until you interviewed them. Otherwise, you'd never know they could send an 80-lbs-kick-bag into the ceiling. THOSE are the guy's you don't want to mess with. In street racing, they're called "sleepers").

[308Mike]

To be honest, I think I'd rather have an Italian longsword just to annoy people who say katanas are so much better.

I HAVE used a Japanese Wakazashi against some of my bushes and lower tree branches. The ease it took to pass through these fibrous and tough limbs was surprising and even though the blade (made by Cold Steel under contract to someone out in the Far East), but the blade not only remained DAMNED SHARP, but was resistant to nicks, dents, blade blemishes, staining, abuse (from sticking it into the soil near where I was working instead of shoving the dirty blade into the Saya/Scabbard).

So far, I've found the Wakazashi I purchased has been a VERY GOOD value as a cutting instrument. It cuts better than a machete, but *I* wouldn't want to abuse it like I would a cheap $5 machete (more like a $10 machete), slamming it into branches near rocky ground, etc., etc.

My recently purchased Kukri has been doing an OUTSTANDING job at chopping branches, limbs, bush vulunteers being cut down at soil level, etc., etc!!

[Jericho941]

Karate, Taekwondo, Kung Fu, it's all bullshit. All it does is turn people who can't fight into fit, motivated individuals who still can't fight.

That's why MMA, KickBoxing, and other contact sports actually MEAN something.

They're effectively the same thing. Are you trying to kill your opponent when you step into a ring? No? Congratulations, you're dancing.

[Yogimus]

Karate, Taekwondo, Kung Fu, it's all bullshit. All it does is turn people who can't fight into fit, motivated individuals who still can't fight.

That's why MMA, KickBoxing, and other contact sports actually MEAN something.

They're effectively the same thing. Are you trying to kill your opponent when you step into a ring? No? Congratulations, you're dancing.

most (90%) figths end up on the ground. Most (90%) fighetrs lack the stamina to keep at it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. Most (99%) severe injuries occur less than a minute in.

Here is what this means to you.

1. Know how to wrestle.
2. Don't blow your energy.
3. Longer you fight, the more of a chance for permanent injury.

Moral of this story? Quit fighting.

[Jericho941]

That's why MMA, KickBoxing, and other contact sports actually MEAN something.

They're effectively the same thing. Are you trying to kill your opponent when you step into a ring? No? Congratulations, you're dancing.

most (90%) figths end up on the ground. Most (90%) fighetrs lack the stamina to keep at it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. Most (99%) severe injuries occur less than a minute in.

Here is what this means to you.

1. Know how to wrestle.
2. Don't blow your energy.
3. Longer you fight, the more of a chance for permanent injury.

Moral of this story? Quit fighting.

Yep!

Anyway, more to the subject: Yes, Japanese swords are overrated, and the folding technique is designed to compensate for crappy iron ore more than anything else. That doesn't mean the swords are crap, they're just not magic. Personally, I blame the 1980s fascination with ninja.

There's a big difference between "overrated" and "useless." Bushido was comparable to other medieval warrior philosophies, no better or worse. The code of chivalry is comparable: It was the way the warrior nobility were expected to live. Chivalry was also full of utter bullshit and codes of honor. The only reason why we roll our eyes and sigh when we say "chivalry is dead" is because it died completely, as opposed to bushido, which was revived in a hijacked form in the early 20th century and made out to be something it wasn't. It'd be like pointing at a zombie and saying "That guy's a total asshole." Well, yeah, but he didn't have any choice in the matter. He'd been dead for awhile before that happened.

As for martial arts: Coincidentally, have you heard of "Bullshido"? It's a website dedicated to pointing out hokey martial arts and "McDojos," that is, martial arts schools that are little more than con jobs. But in any case, Taekwondo is a Korean martial art, and one designed more around show and competition than anything else. Few consider it suitable for combat, and it has only a passing relationship to Japanese martial arts. Both it and Hapkido are really too kick-oriented to be considered suitable for anything other than "fit, motivated individuals who still can't fight" that Highspeed mentioned.

To clarify what I was getting at with the "dancing" comment: Frankly, it is laughable to compare any structured environment to a life-or-death fight. Every form of fight training you can take on can be boiled down to a dance: Katas, combinations, hell, the proper way to throw a straight jab, it's all just a set of steps to memorize. It can be dirt simple with a purpose, like Uechi-Ryu karate, or it can be complicated and showy like TKD, but in the end, it's a set of dance moves. A sport might be full-contact, but at the end of the day, it is a full contact sport.

Really, the value of a martial art in real-world combat can be boiled down to: When I am forced to revert to my basic instincts, the ones I've programmed to the best of my ability, am I going to react effectively, or am I going to respond with FLYING SUPER SECRET NINJA LEG FACE SWEEP KICK TECHNIQUE NO. 7 KA ME HA ME HAAAAAA!?

And, well, there actually are a lot of martial arts that will help you in self-defense scenarios. Striking-oriented martial arts help you with "hurt him bad enough that he's so busy clutching himself in agony, he'll never notice me running away." Wrestling-ish ones like Judo fit into the stats Yogi posted; control the situation immediately, establish dominance on the ground.

Most people's concept of martial arts, even from people who should know better, generally stems from Hollywood: Someone just shows up and roundhouse kicks/haymakers everyone to death and saves the day.

I'm amazed by the amount of people who fall for that bullshit blend of mysticism and spend hours upon hours walking up and down repeating strikes at unresponsive targets and call it training for war.

I fired an M16A2 fifty times at a set of scaled targets printed on a piece of paper, that could never shoot back, at 25 yards. I hit the targets 43 times and the authorities declared me an "expert" with the rifle. Do YOU want to get within 300 meters of me when I'm pissed off?

I don't care if the dummies didn't fight back, I don't want to get within striking distance of someone who spends his free and working time hitting things with a blade.

You know why European fencers generally beat, say, Kendo artists in a style-v-style drill? It's because in fencing, it's all about the "touch," when you stab the opponent with the tip of your blade. In Kendo, you strike the opponent with a slash. 99% of the time, the guy lunging in and hitting with the pointy end is going to win, since it's a far faster and simpler attack. While this is all very fun to watch, in a real fight, it'd be interesting to see what happens. Whether an opponent, when "run through" with a rapier, disembowels his opponent with a slash or collapses in acceptance of his defeat.

I don't know what is driving me to go to bat for the medieval Japanese beyond general disgust with Spartan and Viking worship, but what the hell.

[Erik]

What I hope to do eventually is to make pattern welded swords in the Viking\Dark Ages tradition. But that is MUCH more difficult than any Japanese blade, and there is a fraction of the commercial interest in them ( despite the fact that they are superior as a battle weapon in almost every respect )

Since I'm not an expert on swords in any way, could you please explain why they are more difficult to make?

To someone like me without knowledge in the matter, I would have assumed it would be easier to make a shorter, thicker and straight sword, than it would a long slender and curvy one.

[Highspeed]

Jericho - really interesting posts, thanks. Not a lot there I can really disagree with.

Erik - I appreciate you giving me the chance to talk swords with a Viking

I'm not sure where to start though. Forgive me if what follows is a bit disjointed but I tweaked my back slightly earlier and while it's not too bad I had to take a high powered painkiller and they leave me feeling slightly dozy.

The Viking pattern welded sword at minimum is a 3 piece construction. The core starts out as 2 ( or more ) bundles of low\medium carbon steel rods. The rods are forge welded at each end, then twisted tightly and each one is welded over it's whole length. Then the resulting bars are welded together, with opposite twist directions on either side. Then the bar is forged to shape and a third piece of high carbon steel is welded on to form the cutting edge. Bear in mind that the welding process involves bringing the steels up to an orange yellow heat and striking them until they fuse together. This is difficult to do, a lot of things can go wrong.
What results is a tough springy core with a hard edge, a blade which is as tough as hell and if done right will ultimately bend rather than break.



When the central fuller ( groove ) is formed the bars exhibit the snake like pattern you can see above. Really high quality blades might have more twisted bars in the core, giving an even more complex pattern.

Regarding the two sword shapes ( Katana and Viking ) it is actually easier to make the single edged blade because there isn't a need for symmetry. Not that either is trivial to make of course. The Katana, as forged but before heat treating, is actually straight or only has a very mild curvature. The curve of the final blade is induced in the quench due to the differential hardening.
The Viking sword tapers not only in width to the point but also thickness, they are much lighter than you might expect, just 3lbs on average.

Any questions my lord Bloodaxe ?