U.S. military and intelligence undermining Obama on Syria

[Aesop]

If the DOD generals are deciding to say "Fuck you, you stupid bastard Muslim apologist who only got elected POTUS because 45% of the American public is functionally retarded", and decide to over-ride BHO's foreign policy lunacy...........I"m OK with that.

I'm not.
That's functionally a banana republic, right there.

When they get the backbone to say, "Fuck you sir, I'm going to tell the truth without let or hindrance from your political asswipes, and I'm willing to bet my stars on where the chips fall, you feckless traitor...sir.", I'm okay with that.
Big difference.

What's being undermined in the first instance is the Constitution.
What's being undermined in the second instance is a renegade CinC, aided and abetted by a traitorous media working 24/7 to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people.

If the .mil starts naming hostile and deliberately deceptive media members by name and putting them on a published terrorist watch list, and banning them from any access to military briefings or official sources, that's well within their purview.
So is publishing a list of government members who treat state and military secrets like toilet paper, and doing the same thing.
Both, in fact, are part of their actual job.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

[Termite]

Aesop,

I wasn't talking about DEVGRU pulling off a coup de'tat. I meant I would have liked to have seen the Air Force launch AC-130s and para-rescuers during Benghazi, regardless of SEDEF orders to hold.

That kind of thing.

[Greg]

Aesop,

I wasn't talking about DEVGRU pulling off a coup de'tat. I meant I would have liked to have seen the Air Force launch AC-130s and para-rescuers during Benghazi, regardless of SEDEF orders to hold.

That kind of thing.

You know that one leads to the other, right?

'It's OK for the military to flagrantly disregard their orders, so long as they're doing something *I* like' is on the short list of most stupid ideas.

(If the AF had done any such thing, there would _rightfully_ have been a price to pay, and no AF general was willing to pay it.)

But laws and rules proven by vast historical example to be *absolutely* necessary to maintain civilization and order and avoid Caesars and Praetorians and civil war and chaos, do not suddenly become optional because you're not getting what you want.

That way lies everything that is most immediately dangerous (and evil) about the Left. That ends justify means attitude is corrosive. What do you think of sanctuary cities?

[First Shirt]

Great line from a movie: (I think I was the country music remake of Stagecoach):

"Surely common sense can override Army orders?"
"Sir, common sense has never overridden Army orders."

There have been times when "radio malfunctions" kept commanders from hearing orders that were inconvenient to hear. Officers that have that particular talent are few, far between, and worth their weight in gold bullion. And the vast majority of them are willing to pass on the next promotion in order to do what's right. Which makes them the human equivalent of teeth in a chicken.

[toad]

This comes from Seymour M. Hersh, a noted conspiracy theorist with an anti-US military bent. He constantly claims inside source told him something scandalous and the can't reveal their names. When he names a name it is usually about something innocuous that he'll build on with his "unnamed sources"
Anything he comes up with a New York based media or left wing media will publish or let him talk about. He also claims to be a Republican.

[Steamforger]

Aesop,

I wasn't talking about DEVGRU pulling off a coup de'tat. I meant I would have liked to have seen the Air Force launch AC-130s and para-rescuers during Benghazi, regardless of SEDEF orders to hold.

That kind of thing.

The Hammster was sending troops in and the rumor is he wasn't standing anything down. He was immediately relieved. The wiki is a bit whitewashed, but my understanding is a quick phone call was placed to his XO and he was apprehended instantly.

[JustinR]

This comes from Seymour M. Hersh, a noted conspiracy theorist with an anti-US military bent. He constantly claims inside source told him something scandalous and the can't reveal their names. When he names a name it is usually about something innocuous that he'll build on with his "unnamed sources"
Anything he comes up with a New York based media or left wing media will publish or let him talk about. He also claims to be a Republican.

Ahh, you know I thought the author's name sounded familiar. That will teach me to not look up the political leanings of every journalist whose article I read...sad it's come to that.

[Kommander]

What is an officer to do when they know that if they continue to obey the Commander In Chief bad things (I. E, Bengazi) will continue, if the disobey and act against the CiC they will undermine the Constitution, and if they say "Fuck you sir, I'm going to tell the truth without let or hindrance from your political asswipes, and I'm willing to bet my stars on where the chips fall, you feckless traitor...sir." they will loose their careers, be slandered in the media, likely be prosecuted, and accomplish nothing.

[Greg]

What is an officer to do when they know that if they continue to obey the Commander In Chief bad things (I. E, Bengazi) will continue, if the disobey and act against the CiC they will undermine the Constitution, and if they say "Fuck you sir, I'm going to tell the truth without let or hindrance from your political asswipes, and I'm willing to bet my stars on where the chips fall, you feckless traitor...sir." they will loose their careers, be slandered in the media, likely be prosecuted, and accomplish nothing.

You expect life to be fair? Do you want a pony with that?

More seriously, military personnel sign up knowing they could die in the course of their duties. Sometimes death will be *inevitable*, as in there is nothing anyone can do about it - that is, if they do their duty, and not run away.

And now, that there might have arisen a situation where, to properly do their duty, service personnel might need to risk their career? That their pension might be lost? And that causes you to start bleating about 'what are they to do?'. (Answer: Their duty.)

Do you see how pitiful that is?

[Greg]

Great line from a movie: (I think I was the country music remake of Stagecoach):

"Surely common sense can override Army orders?"
"Sir, common sense has never overridden Army orders."

There have been times when "radio malfunctions" kept commanders from hearing orders that were inconvenient to hear. Officers that have that particular talent are few, far between, and worth their weight in gold bullion. And the vast majority of them are willing to pass on the next promotion in order to do what's right. Which makes them the human equivalent of teeth in a chicken.

Services that have a tradition of independent commands distant from central authority (navies being good example) also tend to have an attitude that you can get away with taking a certain liberty with your orders, if you win. 'Man on the scene' and all that. If you lose, career over of course.

Deliberately not obeying orders because they're wrong also has a long tradition. However the traditional way to scold the issuer of said orders was to commit suicide. In this kinder, gentler era that tradition has been transmuted from suicide to resignation.

But now that careers and pensions are sacred, even that kinder, gentler form of the latter tradition is endangered. (The former tradition mostly died with the invention of the radio, and satellite communication has it deader than disco.)