Pocket Battleships

A place to talk about all things military, paramilitary, tactical, strategic, and logistical.
Langenator
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Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:10 pm

Re: Pocket Battleships

Post by Langenator »

Aesop wrote:Everything?
Certainly not.

Just the Pzkw V, the Me262, the V-1 and V-2 rockets, the MG-42, the StG44, the Flak 88, the wolfpack concept, the combined arms blitzkrieg...

So yeah, just maybe there's something to some of that. You can only attribute so much success to the French being pussies before there has to be some fire to explain the smoke.
The Wehrmacht definitely had some cool toys (the probably built the best subs, too, although I'd argue that the T-34/85 was a better tank than the Pzkw V.

According to David Glantz (When Titans Clashed), the Red Army was well ahead of the Germans in combined arms operations in the mid-1930s, until the purges swept away most of the officers responsible for Deep Battle and the Provisional Field Regulations of 1936, along with the associated ideas. The Germans were just the best at it from 1939-1941.
Aesop wrote: Their overall strategy was
1. We're Germans!
2. the Underpants Gnome
3. All your countries is belong to us.
The Germans had a strategy, which was basically to defeat the enemy army(s) quickly and decisively, usually using flanking or concentric operational maneuver. This strategy had served the Prusso-Germans well, from the time of the Great Sleigh Ride of Fredrick William the Great Elector in 1678 through the Franco-Prussian War. The strategic vision was to avoid a long war, which, due to the geostrategic position of Prussia/Germany would be very difficult to win. This strategy didn't work well when the Germans couldn't outmaneuver its foes (1914) or when the enemy possessed the strategic depth to absorb initial defeats. The British had strategic depth provided by the Channel, their colonies, and ultimately America, while the Soviets had the strategic depth of their huge country and large population base. When the Germans were unable to win in a single rapid campaign, they didn't have a strategic plan B. (See Robert Citino, The German Way of War

BTW - you left out that the Germans probably had the worst military intelligence of any country in the entire 20th century. :D
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skb12172
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Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:45 am

Re: Pocket Battleships

Post by skb12172 »

This deserves it's own thread. I think I'll give it one.
There must be an end to this intimidation by those who come to this great country, but reject its culture.
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Jericho941
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:30 am

Re: Pocket Battleships

Post by Jericho941 »

You have no idea how infuriating it is that the sources that turned my attitude around on many of these issues are now buried under a Google mountain of Call of Duty hits over the last eight years or so. Back when WW2 was cool. :P
Aesop wrote:Everything?
Certainly not.

Just the Pzkw V, the Me262, the V-1 and V-2 rockets, the MG-42, the StG44, the Flak 88, the wolfpack concept, the combined arms blitzkrieg...
4 of those were bad jokes passed off as wunderwaffe, 3 were legit, and others are tactics rather than tech.

The Pzkw V? Seriously? The Panther sounds impressive until you realize it's awfully heavy for a medium tank with a tendency to set itself on fire. The much-maligned Sherman managed to actually be a medium tank and require some kind of action on the part of the enemy to achieve that feat. It was so unreliable nearly a quarter of the 184 deployed to Kursk were withdrawn due to mechanical failure. It was a tank that couldn't handle off-road conditions. It's best summed up as a 45-ton vehicle trying to run on a 25-ton chassis; the fact that it knocked itself out far too often for the enemy to even get a crack at it says all that needs to be said about that non-starter. The Tiger heavies were far, far worse though. None of them could be produced in numbers that'd matter worth a damn even if the US sat out the war.

The Me-262? Okay, fine, they managed to field a jet fighter when it was far too late to matter and everyone else in a much better position in the war were already developing their own. Had such a negligible impact on the war it hardly counts as a "non-zero" factor. Spoken of in hushed tones by people who think Germany's nuclear program is worth more than an amusing, Pratchett-esque footnote.

If the V-1 and V-2 are examples of superior tech, so are box cutters. Neither could be used as anything other than a terror weapon, against a population that was already used to the idea of possibly being blown the fuck up at any moment with little or no warning. Couldn't be used with any accuracy beyond "minute of British Isles" and the V-2 was an especially inefficient platform with which to deliver its payload. Impressive rocketry for the time, but by any other rubric a complete waste of resources.

The StG-44 was a decent shot at an idea everyone had had since the end of WW1. If anything, it was desperation that caused Germany to ignore the conventional attitude towards logistics (we've got all this 8mm lying around, might as well keep the K98 and chamber machine guns in it). Not that Hitler didn't do his level best to stop it from happening; they originally called it the MP-43 just so they could get the project off the ground because Hitler ordered all new rifle development halted in favor of submachine guns. Arguably the best manifestation of an idea that the Americans and Russians had both tackled, except for the fact that if you fire a whole magazine through it, you need leather gloves to hold on to the goddamn thing. Thermal conduction sucks. However, unlike most German wunderwaffe, it mostly deserves its reputation.

The MG-42 was bar-none the best MG of its day. There's just no arguing that. One of the few examples of superior German tech to actually deserve its rep.

The FlaK 88 was good, but as with every Sherman crew somehow encountering "Tigers,"* their reputation is exaggerated by mistaken identity on the part of those on the receiving end.

*I'm serious about German propaganda being that good; it wasn't unheard-of for green Sherman crews to panic at the sight of German tanks and report that they were being attacked by Tigers. In any case, far more results were achieved by the 75mm KwK 40.
So yeah, just maybe there's something to some of that. You can only attribute so much success to the French being pussies before there has to be some fire to explain the smoke.
Or perhaps that the Germans had very clever tacticians, terrible strategists, mixed engineers, and peerless propagandists.

I don't attribute anything to the French beyond putting all their eggs in one basket and having absolutely no plan B. Or, even worse, ignoring plans B through Z that their military immediately coughed up and thus never got to put to use.
As noted in Normandy in June 1944, a German 88 crew in the hedgerows took out 8 Shermans in a row before they were captured, because basically "we ran out of ammunition, and your air corps had cut off our escape route".
And then you have Sherman commanders with over 200 kills in the European theater. Some crews and leaders are just that good.
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