World War I

This forum is for discussions on the noteworthy events, people, places, and circumstances of both the past and the present (note: pop culture etc... is on the back porch).
User avatar
Vonz90
Posts: 4731
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:05 pm

World War I

Post by Vonz90 »

This very much mirrors my thinking on the subject. The US entering into WW1 was probably the worst blunder in US history. If we stay out of it, the Germans still "lose", but in a much less complete way, a compromise peace ensues and the fault lines that led to the Nazis/Fascists and WW2 are never formed. (Not saying there would never be another war, but not a war of WW2 level nastiness.)

http://www.libertylawsite.org/liberty-f ... great-war/
MarkD
Posts: 3969
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:59 pm

Re: World War I

Post by MarkD »

Japan gets a vote too, as does Russia. Both were gearing up domination in their spheres of influence. Stalin would have found another path into Eastern Europe and Japan still would have raped Nanking.

The World Was I mistake was letting the French have as much control over US forces as they did. And the allies won largely because Pershing told them to fuck themselves.
Greg
Posts: 8486
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:15 pm

Re: World War I

Post by Greg »

And Woodrow fucking Wilson wouldn't have an excuse to very nearly stage a coup.

Which was an inspiration for FDR to effectively stage a coup of his own.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
MarkD
Posts: 3969
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:59 pm

Re: World War I

Post by MarkD »

And the great experiment would be done. We'd have fallen. We'd be Belguim now.
Greg
Posts: 8486
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:15 pm

Re: World War I

Post by Greg »

MarkD wrote:And the great experiment would be done. We'd have fallen. We'd be Belguim now.
Wait, what?
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
MarkD
Posts: 3969
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:59 pm

Re: World War I

Post by MarkD »

Greg wrote:
MarkD wrote:And the great experiment would be done. We'd have fallen. We'd be Belguim now.
Wait, what?
If we stayed out of WW I we'd have never become a world power. We'd have balkanized and been beaten piecemeal.
User avatar
Jericho941
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:30 am

Re: World War I

Post by Jericho941 »

There's... a lot to unpack here.
Johnnyreb
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:02 am

Re: World War I

Post by Johnnyreb »

WWI was not our business and Wilson made it our business against the people's will. But on the other hand, if we had stayed out of WWI... that would not have stopped the revolution in Russia, it would not have stopped Lenin or Stalin though a negotiated peace would certainly have prevented Hitler.

But had the Nazis never happened, a Weimar Republic sure as hell could not have stopped Stalin from taking all of Europe like he planned to start doing in 1943, except for Hitler pre-empting him.

And had we stayed out of WWI, our Army might well have continued to be more of a frontier constabulary of less than 100,000 troops, half or more of whom stayed in the Phillipines, with no gathering greater than 800 men in the US, than a bonafide military with a staff college and so forth.

And then, later, when Stalin was taking all of Europe, there would have been no US Army, and no Arsenal of Democracy, and likely no Atom Bomb standing in his way and persuading him not to just go for it once Hitler was dead.
Greg
Posts: 8486
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:15 pm

Re: World War I

Post by Greg »

Johnnyreb wrote:WWI was not our business and Wilson made it our business against the people's will. But on the other hand, if we had stayed out of WWI... that would not have stopped the revolution in Russia, it would not have stopped Lenin or Stalin though a negotiated peace would certainly have prevented Hitler.

But had the Nazis never happened, a Weimar Republic sure as hell could not have stopped Stalin from taking all of Europe like he planned to start doing in 1943, except for Hitler pre-empting him.

And had we stayed out of WWI, our Army might well have continued to be more of a frontier constabulary of less than 100,000 troops, half or more of whom stayed in the Phillipines, with no gathering greater than 800 men in the US, than a bonafide military with a staff college and so forth.

And then, later, when Stalin was taking all of Europe, there would have been no US Army, and no Arsenal of Democracy, and likely no Atom Bomb standing in his way and persuading him not to just go for it once Hitler was dead.
That ship had already sailed. We had become a Major Power with global ambitions decades before WWI.

The terrible isolationism of the 20's that had the military nearly perish from lack of funds was mostly a reaction to Wilson and his excesses. He really was a foul, evil bastard. The bad joke about Wilson being the first fascist dictator of the 20th Century is too close to true to be funny.

I would suggest that, without the lingering bad odor of Wilson to overcome leading to knee-jerk isolationism, our response to global security threats in the 30's wouldn't have been so dangerously close to too late.

In fact we knew as early as the end of WWI that war with Japan was essentially inevitable, and without (as I already mentioned) the lingering odor of Wilson we might have taken a more realistic approach to that threat in the *20's*, which would have done us a world of good.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
User avatar
Netpackrat
Posts: 13983
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:04 pm

Re: World War I

Post by Netpackrat »

Honestly if Stalin had run essentially unopposed across Europe in the 1940s, I am not sure how the end result would have been any worse than what they are doing to themselves today. But I can't really see that happening, given that a negotiated peace would have left Germany (along with the other nations) with essentially intact armies, and the Red Army that attacked the west would not have been the same one that steamrollered Germany in the latter half of WWII... It would have been the incompetent version that attacked Finland in the Winter War. They would have been absolutely creamed by a united Western Europe.
Cognosce teipsum et disce pati

"People come and go in our lives, especially the online ones. Some leave a fond memory, and some a bad taste." -Aesop
Post Reply