MERGED United Passenger Kicked Off/NO FIGHTING

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JustinR
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by JustinR »

Greg wrote:Any or all of them unless you have done something wrong, or violated some posted rule, though in practical terms expressing your disagreement with the wrongful ejection is best done in court, after.

United was acting in violation of its own CoC here, from what I've read. That's worth bearing in mind.
No, they weren't.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... riage.aspx

See Rule 25. Please point out where UA was violating their own stated policies regarding passengers involuntarily denied boarding.
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"My assault weapon won't be 'illegal,' it will be 'undocumented.'" -KL
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FelixEstrella
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by FelixEstrella »

JustinR wrote:
Greg wrote:Any or all of them unless you have done something wrong, or violated some posted rule, though in practical terms expressing your disagreement with the wrongful ejection is best done in court, after.

United was acting in violation of its own CoC here, from what I've read. That's worth bearing in mind.
No, they weren't.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... riage.aspx

See Rule 25. Please point out where UA was violating their own stated policies regarding passengers involuntarily denied boarding.
I would assume the argument hinges on what "denied boarding" means. Does it mean "not allowed on the plane" or "yanked from the plane once they're seated"?
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JustinR
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by JustinR »

FelixEstrella wrote:I would assume the argument hinges on what "denied boarding" means. Does it mean "not allowed on the plane" or "yanked from the plane once they're seated"?
He was not refused transport, he was involuntarily denied a seat on that flight due to an oversold situation. The timeline of when that occurred is irrelevant.
"The armory was even better. Above the door was a sign: You dream, we build." -Mark Owen, No Easy Day

"My assault weapon won't be 'illegal,' it will be 'undocumented.'" -KL
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FelixEstrella
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by FelixEstrella »

JustinR wrote:
FelixEstrella wrote:I would assume the argument hinges on what "denied boarding" means. Does it mean "not allowed on the plane" or "yanked from the plane once they're seated"?
He was not refused transport, he was involuntarily denied a seat on that flight due to an oversold situation. The timeline of when that occurred is irrelevant.
The flight wasn't oversold.
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Greg
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by Greg »

FelixEstrella wrote:
JustinR wrote:
FelixEstrella wrote:I would assume the argument hinges on what "denied boarding" means. Does it mean "not allowed on the plane" or "yanked from the plane once they're seated"?
He was not refused transport, he was involuntarily denied a seat on that flight due to an oversold situation. The timeline of when that occurred is irrelevant.
The flight wasn't oversold.
And he was IN the seat, after boarding.
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TheArmsman
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by TheArmsman »

Have a feeling new case law is going to decided on what the precise definition of boarding is.
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Weetabix
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by Weetabix »

JustinR wrote:
Greg wrote:Are there limits to what a flight crew is authorized to instruct you?

Is it against Federal law to disobey a flight crew that instructs you to rape that lady in the aisle in front of you?
That's a ridiculous argument Greg, and you know it. The law exists for the purpose of the safety of the passengers on board, and the need to keep order inside a pressurized aluminum tube at 30 thousand feet. You'd be surprised at how many passengers are perfectly fine with blocking the emergency egress route of their fellow passengers with luggage and tray tables, or never consider the possibility of their laptop embedding itself into the head of another passenger several rows ahead.
I think he was going for a discussion rather than an argument. Hypothesizing a situation clearly beyond the boundary then working in to find the actual boundary is legitimate. But, that said, I figured that your statement of what the law exists for is actually the case.
You're a glorified bus driver,
Oh reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllly now?
I was pretty sure that statement would draw a reaction. "Glorified bus driver" is inaccurate.
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Greg
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by Greg »

JustinR wrote:Any instructions given to a passenger from a member of the flight crew that is required to be followed by law is going to be safety related, either for themselves or others.
I agree completely. That's what that power is *for*, descended from maritime traditions that existed for exactly the same reason. Thank you for being so concise.

NOW, tell me how throwing someone off a plane, for purely airline internal administrative reasons, directly in contradiction to previous airline policy and arguably in contradiction to the relevant contract, is related to the safety of the passengers and crew?
Your rights don't extend to endangering others, and I can't believe I even have to explain that.
I'm glad you seem to have caught on. Because you know what is dangerous? Calling the bully boys to drag an innocent paying passenger off a plane - they had to make everyone deplane to clean up the bloodstains after - to resolve your personnel scheduling issue. As came up in the Eric Garner case, it's always worth remembering that *any* application of force, even just a little to secure compliance, can be fatal.

So airline guys, are you prepared to kill your customers because you have a scheduling problem?
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Greg
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by Greg »

Weetabix wrote:
JustinR wrote:
Greg wrote:Are there limits to what a flight crew is authorized to instruct you?

Is it against Federal law to disobey a flight crew that instructs you to rape that lady in the aisle in front of you?
That's a ridiculous argument Greg, and you know it. The law exists for the purpose of the safety of the passengers on board, and the need to keep order inside a pressurized aluminum tube at 30 thousand feet. You'd be surprised at how many passengers are perfectly fine with blocking the emergency egress route of their fellow passengers with luggage and tray tables, or never consider the possibility of their laptop embedding itself into the head of another passenger several rows ahead.
I think he was going for a discussion rather than an argument. Hypothesizing a situation clearly beyond the boundary then working in to find the actual boundary is legitimate. But, that said, I figured that your statement of what the law exists for is actually the case.
He first presented that power as unqualified, by implication absolute. Which is absolute bullshit.

So I presented a very simple ad absurdum demonstrating said power is clearly not absolute.

Recalibrate, be more specific.

He did, and shot himself. Because even he admits that the powers of the flight crew are for a specific purpose, which does not apply here.
You're a glorified bus driver.
Oh reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllly now?
I was pretty sure that statement would draw a reaction. "Glorified bus driver" is inaccurate.
It's a fancy bus and tricky to operate, but no it's perfectly accurate. And I said it for a reason, to puncture the big head God complex that seems to take the form of 'you must obey my every command no matter what' that certain parties seem to suffer from.

They (flight crew) are granted unusual powers, under special and limited circumstances, because they also have critical responsibilities that are literally life and death. (As does a bus driver, BTW.)

They abuse those powers, the backlash will be bad for *everyone*.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
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JustinR
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Re: UA Passenger kicked off

Post by JustinR »

FelixEstrella wrote:The flight wasn't oversold.
It became "oversold" the moment the company decided to put the flight crew on. The same thing would have happened if either a passenger seat would have broken during boarding that would have rendered it unusuable, or a flight attendant seat had broken, requiring them to occupy a passenger seat, both occurrences when maintenance defers a seat per the MEL when they are unable to fix it in a timely manner.
"The armory was even better. Above the door was a sign: You dream, we build." -Mark Owen, No Easy Day

"My assault weapon won't be 'illegal,' it will be 'undocumented.'" -KL
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