Pope says trust your conscience

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Vonz90
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Pope says trust your conscience

Post by Vonz90 »

I'm not Catholic, so in a sense this doesn't effect me, but it is almost like this guy does not have too much actual familiarity with the Bible. Kind of sad to see a sister church screwing itself up. They can't even fire him.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/04/08 ... cmp=hplnws

Jeremiah 17:9 ESV - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Proverbs 3:5-7 ESV - Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.

Matthew 15:19 ESV - For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander
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PawPaw
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by PawPaw »

Oh, I believe that Francis is asking for grace, forgiveness, and mercy. His documents deserve careful reading. I don't think that he's changing doctrine, just trying to get the church to not be quite so dogmatic in dealing with parishioners.
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Greg
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by Greg »

This sounds alarmingly like a religious version of modern public schooling's 'there are no wrong answers' and 'everybody gets a trophy'.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

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dfwmtx
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by dfwmtx »

Greg wrote:This sounds alarmingly like a religious version of modern public schooling's 'there are no wrong answers' and 'everybody gets a trophy'.
Well duh, that's what Jesus' parable of the workers in the vineyard was about. Everyone gets a trophy no matter how long or hard you work at it.

In AD&D terms, he's just trying to switch the church from a focus on lawful good to more neutral good. I see no major problem with this.
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Greg
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by Greg »

dfwmtx wrote:
Greg wrote:This sounds alarmingly like a religious version of modern public schooling's 'there are no wrong answers' and 'everybody gets a trophy'.
Well duh, that's what Jesus' parable of the workers in the vineyard was about. Everyone gets a trophy no matter how long or hard you work at it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you still don't get paid unless you work. You have to work, there are still standards, correct?
In AD&D terms, he's just trying to switch the church from a focus on lawful good to more neutral good. I see no major problem with this.
Huh? He's validating subjectivity, and making right and wrong contingent.

But anyway, I'm just an outside observer.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
MarkD
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by MarkD »

dfwmtx wrote:
Greg wrote:This sounds alarmingly like a religious version of modern public schooling's 'there are no wrong answers' and 'everybody gets a trophy'.
Well duh, that's what Jesus' parable of the workers in the vineyard was about. Everyone gets a trophy no matter how long or hard you work at it.

In AD&D terms, he's just trying to switch the church from a focus on lawful good to more neutral good. I see no major problem with this.
Not if you understand the parable you refer to.

The issue at hand with that parable was that some people are born into the Christian faith, and are raised in it and practice it their whole lives. Some come to the faith later (as I did). Some even come to it at the very end of their lives. And all get the same reward, Heaven. There's no different levels for people who've been Christians longer (or as someone I know told someone who bragged "I was Saved when I was six years old", "Does that mean Jesus didn't die for you, He just got hurt a little?") Heaven isn't a cosmic come-as-you-are-party, the last people work in the vineyard got the same reward as those who'd been there all day, but the ones who never went to the vineyard didn't get rewarded.
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PawPaw
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by PawPaw »

Again, a careful reading of the document is necessary for understanding (not relying on the liberal media reporting it). The footnotes will be very instructive. Like this one, reported at Hot Air.
Discernment must help to find possible ways of responding to God and growing in the midst of limits. By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and of growth, and discourage paths of sanctification which give glory to God. Let us remember that “a small step, in the midst of great human limitations, can be more pleasing to God than a life which appears outwardly in order, but moves through the day without confronting great difficulties”.352 The practical pastoral care of ministers and of communities must not fail to embrace this reality.
I haven't read the full text yet, but what I'm seeing is that he's calling for is for the church to get away from rigorous dogma.
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Weetabix
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by Weetabix »

Vonz90 wrote:I'm not Catholic, so in a sense this doesn't effect me, but it is almost like this guy does not have too much actual familiarity with the Bible. Kind of sad to see a sister church screwing itself up. They can't even fire him.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/04/08 ... cmp=hplnws

Jeremiah 17:9 ESV - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Proverbs 3:5-7 ESV - Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.

Matthew 15:19 ESV - For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander
I think it's important to look at primary sources and maybe even direct analyses of the primary source rather than taking literally a headline from a news story quoting snippets of reviews that extrapolate to something that wasn't quite on target with the main thrust.

I also think it's important to look for the theme of a work like the bible rather than viewing specific sentences as a definitive statement on a particular topic.

For instance, about conscience, the Bible also says things like:
1 Timothy 1:5-6 - Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

and

1 Corinthians 8:9-12 - But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

and

John 8:9 - And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

So, it looks like conscience is something to be heeded, and a good conscience something to work toward forming in oneself and in others. In fact, in John, Jesus directs the elders away from fulfilling the letter of the law by way of their consciences in His compassion.

Then, from the document itself, Francis says: "We also find it hard to make room for the consciences of the faithful, who very often respond as best they can to the Gospel amid their limitations, and are capable of carrying out their own discernment in complex situations. We have been called to form consciences, not to replace them." (my emphais)

In a pastoral document, the Pope doesn't change Church Doctrine. He exhorts. I think he's exhorting to compassion and to help forming consciences, in his equivocal and confusing Francis way that I don't personally prefer.
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Weetabix
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by Weetabix »

PawPaw wrote:Oh, I believe that Francis is asking for grace, forgiveness, and mercy. His documents deserve careful reading. I don't think that he's changing doctrine, just trying to get the church to not be quite so dogmatic in dealing with parishioners.
I agree.

And I strongly agree that his documents require careful reading. He's very confusing in the way he expresses himself.
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Termite
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Re: Pope says trust your conscience

Post by Termite »

As a Protestant with a lot of R-C friends, my observation is that maybe it's time to ask, in all seriousness: "Is the(current) Pope Catholic?"
"Life is a bitch. Shit happens. Adapt, improvise, and overcome. Acknowledge it, and move on."
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