Chattanooga shootings

[BDK]

Aesop, I, and a fair number of the other posters, have been to the kind of countries where soldiers in dress uniforms cruise around, to "put an end to crime..."

They tend to be the kinds of places that folks request asylum, once they manage to get across a border...

[Rumpshot]

Being retired/disabled, I try to take advantage of my associated privileges at Luke AFB. Not living in Phoenix anymore the visits to the base are much less frequent than they once were.

I stopped by the Exchange last week and visited with an acquaintance of mine who works the gun counter. Luke started selling rifles, pistols and ammo about 4-5 years ago. I asked how an individual got their purchase out the gate. He smiled and said that he hands over the purchase, the proud new owner then takes it to their vehicle and immediately drives off-base.

He then told me that the previous base commander had decreed that weapon and ammo could not be made at the same time. The new base commander had purchased a firearm and wanted ammo to go with it. My friend apologized and explained the restriction. The new commander asked what it would take to remove the restriction. He was told an official letter from him would do the job. Said letter was in my friend's hands the following day.

Baby steps.

Now if there were just at least lockers at the gate to safely secure my CCW piece while I am on the base. That would be almost acceptable. The military recognizing my CCW (yes I have a real one, not just the AZ constitutional carry), and allowing me to retain my firearm in a responsible manner, then all would be well. This has been a real sore spot for me since I drive 2 hours to get to the greater Phoenix area and have to determine ahead of time if I CAN carry that day.

[JAG2955]

As for guns on base, every day I see a constant stream of local cops (local, county and state) coming on to base to use our pistol range. I know that several have their go happy toys in the trunk.

I never really thought of it that way, but yes, lots of them, ALL the time for anything from picking up a criminal to doing a safety presentation. Yet no disarming from them.

[Weetabix]

Do you want to know how I know this is true? Well, by direction of the local Admiral that is the orders the base security are to execute and there was at least one flight student and a retired Master Chief that it did happen to. In fact they must ask us if we have any weapons in the car, but if they beat us to the punch and ask before we volunteer the information...instant felon.

What if you responded, "Wow, I don't think so, but I don't know. Better check."

Turn around, go dump whatever, come back. "Guess I'm clean. Sorry for the delay."

[Aesop]

Aesop, I, and a fair number of the other posters, have been to the kind of countries where soldiers in dress uniforms cruise around, to "put an end to crime..."

They tend to be the kinds of places that folks request asylum, once they manage to get across a border...

1) Had I suggested that they be set loose "to put an end to crime", there'd have been an excellent point to that response, and I'd agree with you.
2) I've been to those same countries, perhaps even more of them than you, so I too know whereof I speak in that regard.
3) Praytell, explain to the class why it's okay for Billy Joe Fourthumbs, 22, with a sum of zero actual training, and never been closer to the military than under its protective umbrella, to carry anydamnthing he wants for a CCW weapon for self defense, but why it's suddenly tyranny and repression if Sgt. Rock or Private Two Purple Hearts is accorded the same privilege. Please show your work.

I want no part of the Glorious People's Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere on US soil, and no policing nor enforcement powers would devolve to anything I suggested, save the inherent pre-existing natural rights of bearing arms for one's self defense, which pre-date our own Constitution by some millenia.
So it's simply fucktarded beyond measurable instrumentation for TPTB to suggest that the best use of the military off duty, off post, or anywhere but in a combat zone is to mandate that they be nothing other than the bait in the world's largest Gun Free Zones.

I have made no secret of the fact that contrary to orders, while on duty I regularly carried and distributed to others unauthorized live ammo while transiting the countryside in possession of fully automatic individual and crew served weapons, on the theory that I'd rather play "You Bet Your Stripes" and explain after the fact why I'd shot some scumbag trying to relieve me and my men of several operable Title II weapons, than be a good little unarmed dumbass shot in the back of the head with some asshole's fully loaded .22, merely because it made fuckheads like Mary Rottencrotch and Joe Sixpack - or Colonel Blimp and General Shitforbrains - sleep safer at night. And yet, no coup seems to have occurred, and all ammo was recovered without any further note.
In fact, prior to about the 1930s, troops anywhere with unloaded weapons, and or wholly unarmed, would have been ludicrous, so there's no factual basis for decrying the idea other than societal acclimation to the prevailing stupidity in place since that time. I simply want that nonsense to end. There is no magical "King's X" that prevents Sudden Jihadi Syndrome here, and it's monumentally asinine for both military and civilian authorities to pretend otherwise one minute longer. Over a dozen Army troops from Ft. Hood, and five Marines and sailors from Chattanooga could tell anyone that, if we could only re-animate them. There was a time when such an opinion would have passed for popular common sense, but I note intelligence standards among the populace at large have slipped rather abruptly from those halcyon days of yore.

{And as a sidenote, the historically astute will note that the U.S. Marines were called out specifically to be fully armed with SMGs, shotguns, rifles, and sidearms to guard the U.S. Mail* on U.S. property everywhere nationwide within the last century (1921 & '26), with the notable effect that criminal predation of the mail ceased in about 0.2 seconds. IIRC, there were no casualties, criminal or civilian, recorded.}

Your ball.

*(Anyone, go to the link. read the article; it's brief. Then for anyone with current or former LEO time, compare and contrast the posted historical ROEs therein with your/any departments use-of-force guidelines now, and ponder why the predations on the mails cease, while crime continues to spread apace nowadays. And imagine the hijinks that would ensue should a similar level of common sense once again break out anywhere in regard to letting the military defend themselves without further command hindrance.)

[tcourtplayer]

Do you want to know how I know this is true? Well, by direction of the local Admiral that is the orders the base security are to execute and there was at least one flight student and a retired Master Chief that it did happen to. In fact they must ask us if we have any weapons in the car, but if they beat us to the punch and ask before we volunteer the information...instant felon.

What if you responded, "Wow, I don't think so, but I don't know. Better check."

Turn around, go dump whatever, come back. "Guess I'm clean. Sorry for the delay."

Not good enough. By the time you get to them you had better know the answer (we had these tiny ass signs. 100 ft ago warning you after all) that if that were your answer you'd get a "random" inspection.

[Vonz90]

I have made no secret of the fact that contrary to orders, while on duty I regularly carried and distributed to others unauthorized live ammo while transiting the countryside in possession of fully automatic individual and crew served weapons, on the theory that I'd rather play "You Bet Your Stripes" and explain after the fact why I'd shot some scumbag trying to relieve me and my men of several operable Title II weapons, than be a good little unarmed dumbass shot in the back of the head with some asshole's fully loaded .22, merely because it made fuckheads like Mary Rottencrotch and Joe Sixpack - or Colonel Blimp and General Shitforbrains - sleep safer at night. And yet, no coup seems to have occurred, and all ammo was recovered without any further note.

I find this odd. In the Nav, we regularly transported weapons and it was (I believe Navy wide if not service wide) standing orders that no weapons could leave a secure compound (meaning ship, armory, whatever) without at least two armed and qualified personnel accompanying them. In the reserves, we actually had a separate ammo locker in the unit spaces so that that the MA's could arm up immediately after drawing weapons from the armory to be compliant with that standing order. The armory in the reserves served the Navy, AF and Marines and I want to say we all followed the same SOP.

[Aesop]

Sadly, I found it commonplace SOP.

Recall that in the barracks bombing of 1983, 241 Marines and sailors were killed because the ROE by TPTB (up to DoD level) decreed that Marine sentries, mounting gate guard in Beirut during a fucking civil war carry no magazine nor live rounds in the weapon.
Until loading it became a matter of too little, too late.

And that all those coffins taught them, nor any of the services, anything whatsoever unto this day.

Then look at the historical reprint of the ROE from 1921:
"You will carry your pistol in your hand at all times while on duty."
"Carry it loaded, locked, and cocked at all times."

In 1926, somebody steals a fucking mail sack, and we send the Marines in loaded and locked, with Thompson SMGs.
In 2015, somebody guns four Marines down, and the suggestion is that they wet themselves, take off their uniforms, pretend they're invisible, and hope the bad men go away.

Now tell me infantile assholes don't run the government and the DoD.

If we're going to keep troops disarmed, make recruiting duty one staffed 100% with women, nationwide.
They've been pissing and moaning about getting into combat, so whether they get shot or not, it's win-win for the .mil.

[Vonz90]

Sadly, I found it commonplace SOP.

Recall that in the barracks bombing of 1983, 241 Marines and sailors were killed because the ROE by TPTB (up to DoD level) decreed that Marine sentries, mounting gate guard in Beirut during a fucking civil war carry no magazine nor live rounds in the weapon.
Until loading it became a matter of too little, too late.

I am aware of the history of that. Heck I dealt with it a bit in my deployment in 2003 with the jack wagon Commodore we were working for (but no, he was not able to over ride a theater wide Op Ord).

I'm specifically talking about transporting small arms. I first started dealing with that in the early 90's and kept doing so on and off until 2009 or so, both active duty and reserves. During that entire time, the SOP was the same. I do not remember if it was a DOD or DON level requirement, but I know that it was not up to the discretion of the base, CO or anyone else at that level.

[Rod]

When I was on the Fort Bliss Marksmanship Unit, we carried everything up to M-60 machine guns. Post commander had a card made up authorizing us to carry any time, any place due to our mission. It was a laminated card with our names on it. Cops knew and thought it was cool. Not exactly legal according to Army Regs but the post commander was pretty cool.