What to do with Puerto Rico?

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What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Weetabix » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:35 pm

I don't watch TV, so I miss out(?) on a lot. But I was at a restaurant for lunch where they had a big screen on CNN. It was a continuous stream of "Bash Trump!" Most of it was regarding Puerto Rico, but still, all bash Trump.

That got me thinking a bit about Puerto Rico. Haven't there been factions there for years that want to throw off the Yankee imperialist yoke? Why don't we let them?

I could see not making them a state. I'm guessing they'd be an even bigger drain.

But what are our interests there? Strategic? Natural resources? Fear of another Cuba? Apathy?
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Vonz90 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:27 pm

Weetabix wrote:I don't watch TV, so I miss out(?) on a lot. But I was at a restaurant for lunch where they had a big screen on CNN. It was a continuous stream of "Bash Trump!" Most of it was regarding Puerto Rico, but still, all bash Trump.

That got me thinking a bit about Puerto Rico. Haven't there been factions there for years that want to throw off the Yankee imperialist yoke? Why don't we let them?

I could see not making them a state. I'm guessing they'd be an even bigger drain.

But what are our interests there? Strategic? Natural resources? Fear of another Cuba? Apathy?


To me, we offer to pay off all of their debt if they accept independence, minus Rosey Roads and maybe a couple Islands as payment for us taking on their debt.

It was a bad idea to take them 100+ years ago and it is bad idea to have them now.

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Jericho941 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:04 pm

Weetabix wrote:Most of it was regarding Puerto Rico, but still, all bash Trump.


Well, to be fair, Trump has been handling Puerto Rico's hurricane woes more or less exactly as well as a WWE gag guest star could be expected to handle it.

Weetabix wrote:Haven't there been factions there for years that want to throw off the Yankee imperialist yoke? Why don't we let them?


Every time they put it to a vote, to push for "let us go" or "make us a state already," the vote fails. There are pros and cons to being a US territory and they're not sure what way would maximize pro and minimize con.
Weetabix wrote:But what are our interests there? Strategic? Natural resources? Fear of another Cuba? Apathy?


It's a piece of land with 3.4 million US citizens living on it. That's about it. Normally, that's really all you need right there.
Last edited by Jericho941 on Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Gunnuts » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:39 pm

Weetabix wrote:But what are our interests there?


Baseball players. ;)

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby MarkD » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:15 pm

Gunnuts wrote:
Weetabix wrote:But what are our interests there?


Baseball players. ;)


Nah,. they come.from the Dominican Republic....

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Rich » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:26 pm

If they ever opted for independence, about 40% of the Puerto Ricans would move to New York city, to join the ones who are already there.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby evan price » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:18 am

Jericho941 wrote:
Well, to be fair, Trump has been handling Puerto Rico's hurricane woes more or less exactly as well as a WWE gag guest....

Um no.
9500 containers of relief aid, logistics support for a marine division, etc.
But the entity receiving the aid needs to....have facilities to distribute the aid, since locals supposedly would know where to send the various things.
Instead the truck drivers went on strike because they wanted extra pay for working the disaster. The dockworkers fell into 'manana, manana' mode.
The mayor of San Juan can't even be bothered to go to the FEMA meetings where things are scheduled and apportioned...but she can find the surviving screen printing shop and have tee-shirts printed to claim Trump is killing them.
Oh and FBI is investigating allegations that relief aid is being held hostage for preferential treatment to political allies and payola.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Netpackrat » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:37 am

evan price wrote:Oh and FBI is investigating allegations that relief aid is being held hostage for preferential treatment to political allies and payola.


Third world crap like this is why they will never be suitable for statehood.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Jered » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:45 am

Make them go be their own country.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby MiddleAgedKen » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:00 am

Jered wrote:Make them go be their own country.


Yep. Last group off the dock plays "The World Turned Upside Down" (for the irony, don't y'know) and then sail away forever, screening all calls and leaving no forwarding address.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Rich Jordan » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:17 am

Netpackrat wrote:
evan price wrote:Oh and FBI is investigating allegations that relief aid is being held hostage for preferential treatment to political allies and payola.


Third world crap like this is why they will never be suitable for statehood.


As opposed to, say, illinois....

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Netpackrat » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:46 am

Rich Jordan wrote:
Netpackrat wrote:
evan price wrote:Oh and FBI is investigating allegations that relief aid is being held hostage for preferential treatment to political allies and payola.


Third world crap like this is why they will never be suitable for statehood.


As opposed to, say, illinois....


Illinois didn't start out that way.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby scipioafricanus » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:53 am

Remember a lot of Puerto Rican's protesting a navy base/ island used for training around 2004? I remember a fat "Rev" Sharpton going on a hunger strike over it, and eventually the Navy removed themselves from the island.

Good long term thinking on the commonwealth part.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Jericho941 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:19 pm

evan price wrote:
Jericho941 wrote:
Well, to be fair, Trump has been handling Puerto Rico's hurricane woes more or less exactly as well as a WWE gag guest....

Um no.
9500 containers of relief aid, logistics support for a marine division, etc.


None of which is where the POTUS lifts anything besides a pen. The part where he's actually relevant is where he's failing:

The mayor of San Juan can't even be bothered to go to the FEMA meetings where things are scheduled and apportioned...but she can find the surviving screen printing shop and have tee-shirts printed to claim Trump is killing them.


His job is 90% optics and he's getting massacred on that front. For one thing, he's a POTUS losing to a mayor of a city with a population of half that of Seattle. For another, his photo ops just bomb, like the towel-tossing incident.

He's still trying to wage an election campaign against Hillary Clinton.

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby ShooterScott » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:21 pm

Part of what I've heard is the problem is there were vultures from wallstreet buying up their debt and will not let them get out of it. I guess this is a common tactic.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Vonz90 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:46 pm

ShooterScott wrote:Part of what I've heard is the problem is there were vultures from wallstreet buying up their debt and will not let them get out of it. I guess this is a common tactic.


Vulture funds do buy up defaulted debt, which is a good thing or there would be no market for defaulted debt which would be worse for both the people holding it and ultimately those who issue debt and have risky credit.

So why exactly should PR not have to pay back their bonds?

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Precision » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:24 am

Is "let it burn" an option?

If not, can we retract their territory status and MAKE them their own country?
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Greg » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:42 pm

Jericho941 wrote:
evan price wrote:
Jericho941 wrote:
Well, to be fair, Trump has been handling Puerto Rico's hurricane woes more or less exactly as well as a WWE gag guest....

Um no.
9500 containers of relief aid, logistics support for a marine division, etc.


None of which is where the POTUS lifts anything besides a pen. The part where he's actually relevant is where he's failing:

The mayor of San Juan can't even be bothered to go to the FEMA meetings where things are scheduled and apportioned...but she can find the surviving screen printing shop and have tee-shirts printed to claim Trump is killing them.


His job is 90% optics and he's getting massacred on that front. For one thing, he's a POTUS losing to a mayor of a city with a population of half that of Seattle. For another, his photo ops just bomb, like the towel-tossing incident.

He's still trying to wage an election campaign against Hillary Clinton.


You seem to be making the bizarre argument that substance is irrelevant and appearances are what's *really* important.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Jericho941 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:33 am

Greg wrote:You seem to be making the bizarre argument that substance is irrelevant and appearances are what's *really* important.

Well, I am talking about American politics. :)

But more directly, it's that a politician (particularly a president) is largely irrelevant on a practical level beyond signing an order drafted by other people so that other other people will sort out the details and do the work. That the rest of his job, the majority of his job, is selling it. "My fellow Americans, Things are being done about the Stuff. I have personally made sure of it. Today, I am personally overseeing it by standing in front of a crowd at the Place where the Stuff happened, so you know that I Care and am Doing Things. I am Powerful and Important, so you know that the Things I do will take care of the Stuff for you. I can only do it faster and better with your help."

Colbert might've mocked Bush for this:
I stand by this man. I stand by this man because he stands for things. Not only for things, he stands on things. Things like aircraft carriers and rubble and recently flooded city squares. And that sends a strong message: that no matter what happens to America, she will always rebound -- with the most powerfully staged photo ops in the world.
But it worked.

And this isn't just cynical "this is how you keep your approval ratings up when bad things happen." Keeping up appearances in the face of adversity is a president's job. It draws attention to the problems in a constructive way and helps get things done. And if the locals aren't helping, you turn that against them. "Yeah, it's great that you're wading through sewage with a bullhorn, but that's not your job. If you really want to help, you have to meet with us so we can coordinate. Leave the rescue work to our very capable professionals." Then, she either gets with the program or eats shit. Either relief starts reaching the people who need it or the person jamming it up takes the blame.

Or you could toss towels randomly at survivors like you're firing a t-shirt cannon into a wrestling audience because you think every show is the same, and let her walk all over you. But that's the behavior of someone whose political victory came exclusively from running against someone who thought they didn't even need to run.

That's the thing about politics: style and substance are related.

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby HTRN » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:22 am

Nothing will happen, as Puerto Ricans are a well organized, and politically active group here in Ny, which means any attempt to force either statehood(which has responsibilties and taxes they don't want) or independence(economic suicide) becomes a form of political suicide. Only the Hasidic Jews are better connected/organized ethic group in terms of political influence at the local(which has ripples at the state and federal level) level.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby 308Mike » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:25 am

HTRN wrote:Nothing will happen, as Puerto Ricans are a well organized, and politically active group here in Ny, which means any attempt to force either statehood(which has responsibilties and taxes they don't want) or independence(economic suicide) becomes a form of political suicide. Only the Hasidic Jews are better connected/organized ethic group in terms of political influence at the local(which has ripples at the state and federal level) level.

Looking from the outside (from the opposite side of the country), this sounds about right from my observations. :D :D :D
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby D5CAV » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:45 am

Give Puerto Rico back to Spain as a consolation prize for losing Catalonia.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby blackeagle603 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:11 pm

It's a Territory for pete's sake. Can't we just dissolve the current government, install a new governor and send a marshall? Wild West baby!
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:27 pm

The best thing to do would be to spin them off - that probably will not happen.

The second best thing to do is to give the Hong Kong treatment (tremendously low taxes and regulation) to spur rapid growth. That is actually probably possible post hurricane if it is pushed correctly.

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Rich » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:22 pm

Consider that Puerto Rico is apparently the research center of the U.S. pharmaceutical industry, we have to ponder whether we are better off with or without them.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Netpackrat » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:32 pm

Rich wrote:Consider that Puerto Rico is apparently the research center of the U.S. pharmaceutical industry, we have to ponder whether we are better off with or without them.


That actually explains a lot about the personalities of some Puerto Ricans I have encountered online.
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby BDK » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:48 pm

Option A, repatriate all Purto Roxana and cut them loose. They are another failed Caribbean culture and we don't need them

Option B) Make them into a Singapore, by installing a very pro-development and law and order governor. They are a territory, things can be shoved down their throats.

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby D5CAV » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:20 am

BDK wrote:Option A, repatriate all Purto Roxana and cut them loose. They are another failed Caribbean culture and we don't need them

Option B) Make them into a Singapore, by installing a very pro-development and law and order governor. They are a territory, things can be shoved down their throats.

Only difference from Vonz is Singapore vs. Hong Kong.

However the problem with option both Option 2 is Singapore and Hong Kong are full of Chinese. I don't see many Chinese in Puerto Rico (oops! did I say something racist?).
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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Vonz90 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:26 pm

D5CAV wrote:
BDK wrote:Option A, repatriate all Purto Roxana and cut them loose. They are another failed Caribbean culture and we don't need them

Option B) Make them into a Singapore, by installing a very pro-development and law and order governor. They are a territory, things can be shoved down their throats.

Only difference from Vonz is Singapore vs. Hong Kong.

However the problem with option both Option 2 is Singapore and Hong Kong are full of Chinese. I don't see many Chinese in Puerto Rico (oops! did I say something racist?).


Panama doesn't have any Chinese either, but they have boomed since they liberalized their economy. Same could be said for Chile, or anywhere else where it is tried.

It doesn't require Chinese or Europeans or magic gnomes, if you allow people economic freedom and a reasonable degree of rule of law - They figure out a way to prosper.

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby BDK » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:40 pm

Singapore boomed because the world came to it. Same reason why China - essentially stagnant for millennia has boomed.

Change Puerto Rico's Communist crap, and the world/the US goes to it, and forces growth.

They will still have the same failed, useless culture, but it will be marginalized and displaced.

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Re: What to do with Puerto Rico?

Postby Vonz90 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:21 pm

BDK wrote:They will still have the same failed, useless culture, but it will be marginalized and displaced.


That is how cultures get better, so win/win.


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