20 to 1

[D5CAV]

I think we are already at a point where a conservative may feel they have "nothing left to lose" at the Federal level.

It has happened here before.

http://www.zerohedge.com/print/564238

Boston – National Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed by elements of a Para-military extremist faction. Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Let's hope cooler heads prevail before it happens here again.

[Frankingun]

The thing is, conservative and libertarian minded folk like us have no reason to obey the government any more. Post Clinton no intention no prosecution. As long as we're not hurting any one, who the hell cares? Use a product not in accordance with label directions. Light that cigar, modify that gas can so it actually pours gas. Just don't do both at the same time, because that is unsafe for sure.

Get to know your neighbors. Know who is true and who is statist.

[Netpackrat]

modify that gas can so it actually pours gas.

Way ahead of you.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f37/jerr ... a-1025877/

[D5CAV]

This guy says "Resistance is Futile": https://www.rutherford.org/publications ... an_armed_r

Anyone who believes that they can wage—and win—an armed revolt against the American police state has not been paying attention. Those who wage violence against the government and their fellow citizens are playing right into the government’s hands. Violence cannot and will not be the answer to what ails America.

Whether instigated by the government or the citizenry, violence will only lead to more violence. It does not matter how much firepower you have. The government has more firepower.

It does not matter how long you think you can hold out by relying on survivalist skills, guerilla tactics and sheer grit. The government has the resources to outwait, out-starve, outman, outgun and generally overpower you.

I'm more with the "20 to 1" crowd. Unfortunately, like nuclear deterrence, what keeps a degree of mutual respect and compromise between parties is the idea that really pissing-off the other party will be detrimental to one's survival.

As long as there are people in us.gov who believe, as this author does, that "Resistance is Futile", they will try to play the "totalitarian" card.

That won't end well.

[Jericho941]

The problems I see with most people talking up rebellion is that none of them have a clue. I think it was Yogi who pointed out, "talk to me about how you're going to keep garbage collection going, then I'll take your talk seriously."

It's been a recurring thing I've seen still active-duty and veterans saying "I will never carry out an illegal order to fire on US citizens" or something similar. But there's the rub: Suppressing insurrection is illegal? Since when? Was it illegal to defend Fort Sumter?

What if the first shots in The Rebellion came from some decidedly anti-American group? If they were those fired by that dipshit in Dallas? Or, hell, the Beltway snipers? Timothy McVeigh? Or some general though thought Turkey has it all figured out with regard to balance of power?

What I'm getting at is the same assumption seems to be prevalent: That the government will make the first move, it will be blatant and illegal, and that will spur the populace to action against tyranny. That the rebellion will be Us. That there will be clear ideological lines that can be drawn between Us and Them, and that anyone with a conscience will join Us. That a rebellion will not suffer from popular resentment when utilities disappear. All things going the right way, 20:1 is probably a conservative estimate for the absolute beginning of hostilities, and then it sharply drops off to become wildly optimistic in a matter of weeks, if not days.

Fighting for freedom becomes a lot less desirable when it starts to mean the freedom to freeze, starve, or shit yourself to death from dirty water. These are all very real horrors of war that the domestic US population (and, frankly, most of the military) has been spared for... well, pretty much living memory. For both sides, there's no World to go back to.

That said, it's not rosy for the government forces either. Our military has been fighting entirely expeditionary wars since the 1860s. Our current strategy of rotating forces in and out of the combat zone for rest and retraining would no longer be viable and we have no experience with anything else. It wouldn't be just the tip of the supply chain in the combat zone, it'd be the entire thing. Instead of dealing with foreign dipshits like Karzai on COIN, the "local leaders" hold seats in Congress. And for SOME reason, no OPSEC department has ever cracked down on milso stickers, moto plates and family stick figure decals for POVs allowed on base; consider those implications.

No matter what, it'd be a godawful mess. That much is clear.

[First Shirt]

Re: Resistance is futile

I think the gentleman's basic premise is seriously flawed, because he assumes that the military and LEOs at every level will march in lock-step to do the government's bidding. Not gonna happen. No way, no how.

I'm not sure what the pro and con percentages will be, but I'll bet my beer ration that there's going to be more with the rebels than with the gov't. Probably a lot more.

[Weetabix]

And for SOME reason, no OPSEC department has ever cracked down on milso stickers, moto plates and family stick figure decals for POVs allowed on base; consider those implications.

In Hans Gruber voice: I must have missed 60 Minutes. What are you saying?

[Vonz90]

Thought experiment. Let's say that Trump looses in a landslide and drags down enough that the GOP looses the House and Senate. Hillary appoints a lefty troll to the SCOTUS, he/she is confirmed.

New congress enacts laws outlawing all semi-automatic weapons, most pistols, etc. They also make "campaign finance reform" that makes all but a very tightly regulated band of activity to be illegal in kind campaign donations. RICO statutes are used to go after anyone going against global warming alarmism, other environmental regulations, anti-open borders, etc. - particularly if they have any ties to business. Social conservatism is essentially banned from all media as "hate speach". SCOTUS rogers up to all of this with a 5-4 leftist majority.

So now the police (FBI and other Federal, some state and local) are going around arresting anyone they can find violating any of these new laws including searches on anyone who is known to have arms who did not turn in their suddenly illegal firearms. Or even more subtlety, they put tax leans on you that can only be cleared by turning in what you have. Some are put in jail, most are allowed to plea-bargain themselves out but loose all of their firearms and have to agree to suspend any further RICO behavior (like issue advocacy). Some are given long sentences if they fight things to the end.

This is all legal right? The SCOTUS bought off on the applicable laws? Do the police enforce it? Does the military shrug, fight or something else? Do they fight any group that goes to arms over it?

I do not think this is an easy answer. I don't want to find out, but I fear that I may.

[PawPaw]

New congress enacts laws outlawing all semi-automatic weapons, most pistols, etc. They also make "campaign finance reform" that makes all but a very tightly regulated band of activity to be illegal in kind campaign donations. RICO statutes are used to go after anyone going against global warming alarmism, other environmental regulations, anti-open borders, etc. - particularly if they have any ties to business. Social conservatism is essentially banned from all media as "hate speach". SCOTUS rogers up to all of this with a 5-4 leftist majority.

That paragraph makes it all sound like it happens in a week. In reality, it would probably happen over a timeline of years. Heller, for example, filed his lawsuit in 2003. SCOTUS didn't hear it until 2008. That's five years on a basic case. SCOTUS moves exceedingly slowly.

For most of the rest of it, I'd go to current scholarship on the Possee Comitatus Act, which generally forbids using the Army and Air Force from enforcing civil law in the US. All officers are briefed and instructed on Posse Comitatus regularly, and if the military were ordered to step in, that Act would serve as the basis for discussion. The thing about Posse Comitatus, is that it provides criminal penalties for violating the Act, which gives professional military folks a very good incentive to know and understand it.

[Jericho941]

And for SOME reason, no OPSEC department has ever cracked down on milso stickers, moto plates and family stick figure decals for POVs allowed on base; consider those implications.

In Hans Gruber voice: I must have missed 60 Minutes. What are you saying?

OPSEC: Operational Security. Basically your OPSEC coordinator/monitor/unit/whatever is/are the guy(s) and/or gal(s) who make sure people aren't doing stupid things like, say, posting when a unit is set to get back form a deployment on Facebook.

milso: Military Significant Other. Many of them wind up adorning their vehicles with stickers broadcasting their status as such. "PROUD (BRANCH) WIFE," "His Boots Her Flip-Flops," "Hardest Job in the (Branch)," and so on.

moto: "motivational/motivated." The sort of jackass who gets branch-oriented vanity plates and bumper stickers and covers their Jeep, F-350 or Geo Metro (why is it always either a Jeep, a huge F-something or a glorified go-kart?) until it looks like a gay pride float crashed into a recruiting center.

Family stick figure decals: This garbage.



To sum up my feelings about stick figure families, I'm just gonna quote The Damn Few wholesale:

I mean, what intelligent person broadcasts such sensitive information about their family to absolute strangers? If I were a serial killer -and I’m not- hypothetically, if I was, and I saw your smarmy sticker on your minivan, I now know you have a little boy who plays baseball and a little girl who dances, both of which I can find easily at practice after hours. The husband with a briefcase tells me Daddy probably travels for work; guess he’s not around most weekdays. And to top it all off, that little puppy informs me Fido won’t be much of a threat either. Hell, I might even wear his skin as a hat when I’m done with him! Couple all that with Timmy’s Student of the Month sticker you’re so proud of, and I not only know who, what, and when, but where they will all be. Thanks for the intel! I’ll be eating all of your livers with a nice chianti.

POVs: Personally owned vehicles.

When I got back from Osan and found just how godawfully adorned people's cars were allowed to be and still get on base in the States, it blew my mind. I mean, we're supposed to be at least a little concerned about terrorism, yeah?

In the event of armed rebellion, on either side this is all basically screaming "kill me."