Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

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skb12172
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Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by skb12172 »

asked some of the women in my office, last week. Their point being that we have plenty of other concerns, we spend more on our military than the next 7 or 8 nations combined, etc, etc. Maybe if we downsized a bit and just worried about our own defense, rather than policing the world, our country would be in better shape. As examples, they point to our allies in Europe, etc.

I countered that we probably wouldn't spend any less, we would just shift that money to more handouts, but part of their argument did strike a chord. If we didn't try to be the baddest, most dominant military machine on earth, how/what would/should we downsize? What is an "appropriate" size and role for our military?

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Aglifter
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by Aglifter »

Could we reposition... Maybe...

But, if we don't, it will be China, or Russia - and neither of those cultures do well, once they get to be the baddest gorilla in the room...

Frankly, I don't believe in a standing Army. I think it will, eventually, lead to tragedy - nor do I believe in Federal police forces, aside from specific investigative ones (essentially, how the FBI and the Treasury agents were, originally.)

The NSA's path down cyber warfare, will, probably, be the next major step - but, right now, the major powers are playing games.

The first one to militarize space, will have the upper hand. The first one to take away ICBMs as a deterrent will have the upper hand.

But, a major conflict between the main powers is economic suicide.

Frankly, I'm not all that certain how much longer the idea of large "governments" will really make sense, economically. Eventually, economics will force a certain level of homogenization on property rights, taxation, and trade regs.

We should encourage Europe to take care of itself again - if nothing else, they will relearn the value of an armed citizenry as a cost-effective deterrent, and, just as there's something juvenile about a man who does not care to learn to defend himself (Pacifists are not the same), there's something broken in a culture which will not do so.

Europe might, again, end up in squabbles, if they re-arm - but they don't have much power or influence anymore - and, provided we remain firm in staying out of it - they shouldn't pose much of a threat.

EG, Yugoslavia was a mess - and, now, its pretty much sorted. Croatia has plenty of lovely tourism, they seem to get along w. the Slovenians, and in general, seem like lovely people. (I have a few Croatian friends.)

Had Clinton gotten to have "his" war, and send troops in, we'd still be there.

(I suspect part of Obama's Syrian stupidity is he wants to have "his" war like all the other presidents in recent times.)
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Aesop
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by Aesop »

Given that we've been #1 since about 1943, ask yourself if you think the United States has been in a good place geopolitically for the last 70 years, or not.

Then I'd move on to the same question I ask when producers (or worse, the rare whiny Teamsters) question why I bring three large boxes of medical supplies to work on set:
I simply ask them which things they can assure me I won't need, and which occurences they will take responsibility for in the lack, and I'll gladly leave them behind, rather than clutter up their precious shuttle van for the 2 minutes it taks to get me to locations.

The silence after that question thunders.

Look at a globe, and tell me which country, by default, we ought to cede first place to.

Straight up, which country ought we drop trou for, bend over, and be their bitch, in perpetuity?

I've got nothing...
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Termite
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by Termite »

We can give up having the biggest, baddest military when we invent & produce NCC-1701..........

Oh......wait a minute.....then we would have the biggest & baddest.......Never-mind..... :?

:lol:
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Netpackrat
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by Netpackrat »

Termite wrote:We can give up having the biggest, baddest military when we invent & produce NCC-1701..........

Oh......wait a minute.....then we would have the [strike]biggest & baddest.......Never-mind..... :?[/strike]
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Jered
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by Jered »

Termite wrote:We can give up having the biggest, baddest military when we invent & produce NCC-1701..........

Oh......wait a minute.....then we would have the [strike]biggest & baddest.......Never-mind..... :?[/strike]

:lol:
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Jericho941
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by Jericho941 »

Aesop wrote:Straight up, which country ought we drop trou for, bend over, and be their bitch, in perpetuity?
I dunno, but it kinda looks like we're already doing that for NATO, Israel et al.

Sub from on top, as it were.
Greg
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by Greg »

Aesop wrote:Given that we've been #1 since about 1943, ask yourself if you think the United States has been in a good place geopolitically for the last 70 years, or not.

Then I'd move on to the same question I ask when producers (or worse, the rare whiny Teamsters) question why I bring three large boxes of medical supplies to work on set:
I simply ask them which things they can assure me I won't need, and which occurences they will take responsibility for in the lack, and I'll gladly leave them behind, rather than clutter up their precious shuttle van for the 2 minutes it taks to get me to locations.

The silence after that question thunders.

Look at a globe, and tell me which country, by default, we ought to cede first place to.

Straight up, which country ought we drop trou for, bend over, and be their bitch, in perpetuity?

I've got nothing...
It's not quite that bad... but close.

There's a middle ground, where we may not have the single most powerful military but nobody is *more* powerful than we are. Kind of a balance of power deal. In some ways it's better than what we have now, in some ways worse but it's survivable. (I'm thinking the European Great Powers, but arguably the Cold War was such a situation too.)

What IS absolutely critical is that we not let anyone (ANYONE) become more powerful than we are. As messed up as we are sometimes, there is noone else who is even as remotely trustworthy with that degree of power so we need to do what we need to do to protect our interests.
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randy
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by randy »

Adding a couple of thoughts to what is already stated:

Your co-workers ignore the fact that the reason that Europe gets away (and has for 65+ years) with such low military expenditures is that they depend on our military when it gets down to cases.

Philosophically, they ignore that the military (and it's counterpart foreign diplomacy) is the primary reason to even have a Federal government. All those other things they want to spend money on are NOT responsibilities of the Federal (or, usually, any other) government, and are at best luxuries we can afford because our military has been so strong.

I would bet that they have the fantasy common in Americans that it isn't fair how much we overwhelmed our opponents in some of our previous conventional conflicts. They don't understand that a well planned military operation should approach the level of clubbing baby seals when it comes to the overwhelming amount of force you bring onto the enemy. The more you can do that consistently, and the more your opponents perceive you can do that, the less likely you will have to do it at all. If you're in a "fair" fight, then someone,on either or both sides. has f**ked up.

It is immoral to put troops in a position where they don't have the best chance possible for victory and survival. You're asking them to possibly die for you, don't snivel about what it costs in mere money. Only a morally bankrupt country of scum would knowingly send their military war without the benefit of the best of the best they can afford. And so long as we fund nonsense like the National Endowment for the Arts, we have plenty of money for a first rate military.
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Jericho941
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Re: Do We Really NEED The World's Most Powerful Military?

Post by Jericho941 »

CByrneIV wrote:Were being topped from the bottom you mean?

While I appreciate the joke, the statement itself is... I'll be honest my first thought was to say stupid, but I know you're not... But you really should know better.
Yeah, I think a lot of frustration I've had lately on... well, a lot of things, is making things come out twisted. I've been hearing a lot about how "imperialist" the US is from people all over the world who also always expect us to Do Something about the bad things in the world. They wouldn't get involved themselves, no; they're too civilized to have a respectable military, they'd rather have socialized health care and things like government-mandated 52 weeks of paid maternity leave. Leave it to those hopeless, backwards imperialists. As long as they respect the way of life of the nation they invade, anyway.

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It's enough to make one isolationist purely out of spite. Or start reciting the "You can't handle the truth" speech from memory. They despise us and our power but demand to be protected by it. It kinda reminds me of my dad when I moved all my guns out of the house and didn't leave any for him to borrow "in case of bears" when he goes to Montana. Well, I've had enough sermonizing about how guns are evil and how worried he is that I'll kill myself. Hell, after Sandy Hook I found I had to tone down my rhetoric on certain topics or else he'd have anxiety attacks, thinking I'm the next nutjob. The short of it was, he could either take responsibility for his safety or stop treating me like a necessary evil. (I never bothered asking what he'd do about bears if I sold all my guns like he wanted.)

Anyway, back to the topic... yes, we do need it. Or what, leave the security of western civilization in the hands of stoner conscripts? There are only a handful of nations I'd trust to even partially pick up the slack, they're all deployed with us, and their home populations are even less inclined to keep this up than ours. The UN is a joke.

As amusing as it would be to see the reaction a couple years later when Putin's running the show, it wouldn't be worth it.
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