Is Luke The Bad Guy?

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Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Darrell » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:55 pm

Will Luke Skywalker be revealed to be the Vaderesque head bad guy in the latest SW installment?
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Erik » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:08 pm

You havent heard the fan theory of who the Big Bad was supposed to be in the prequels? (before GL supposedly "chickened out") Some of those fans think that the new series will bring back that idea.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby blackeagle603 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:29 am

Jar Jar Binks -- Drunken Fist Master Sith?

Hmmm... plausible? 8-) 8-)
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby skb12172 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:05 am

In the novels, it was Jacen. But since Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin Solo aren't part of this universe, who knows?
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby MiddleAgedKen » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:13 am

blackeagle603 wrote:Jar Jar Binks -- Drunken Fist Master Sith?

Hmmm... plausible? 8-) 8-)


Has some surface plausibility, but I'm not convinced. One of those "great Drunken Fist moves" is called a kip-up, if memory serves. I remember being taught it in grade school gym class.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Mike OTDP » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:05 am

You don't know how much I wanted to see Vader chop Jar Jar. Preferably gut him...so he could say, "Meesa dead!" right before dropping.

Audience cheers would have been epic.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Aesop » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:09 am

Supposedly there is a Jar Jar skeleton laid out on the sands of Tatooine or some other rim system craphole.
If that's true, the audience cheers will be epic.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Lokidude » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:49 am

skb12172 wrote:In the novels, it was Jacen. But since Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin Solo aren't part of this universe, who knows?


The EU can still exist. They're just not being held to it full and fully. I also suspect some Jaina and Jacen action.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Kommander » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:17 am

Fun Fact: Since the Jedi are not part of any formal military command structure they are unlawful combatants. On the other hand the Sith, when they had their empire, integrated their force users into the command structure, therefore making them legitimate and legal combatants.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Jericho941 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:41 am

Kommander wrote:Fun Fact: Since the Jedi are not part of any formal military command structure they are unlawful combatants. On the other hand the Sith, when they had their empire, integrated their force users into the command structure, therefore making them legitimate and legal combatants.


...according to the current LOAC established on a backwater planet in a galaxy far, far away. :P

Still, though, that's a bit of a stretch. With a Sith government it's more like a military dictatorship. The Jedi had some nebulous role in Republic military hierarchy, but they still had one, even if it seems to be making a general out of anyone holding a light saber.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Langenator » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:42 pm

I seem to recall Obi Wan Kenobi being a general in the Clone Wars.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Greg » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:02 pm

Jericho941 wrote:
Kommander wrote:Fun Fact: Since the Jedi are not part of any formal military command structure they are unlawful combatants. On the other hand the Sith, when they had their empire, integrated their force users into the command structure, therefore making them legitimate and legal combatants.


...according to the current LOAC established on a backwater planet in a galaxy far, far away. :P

Still, though, that's a bit of a stretch. With a Sith government it's more like a military dictatorship. The Jedi had some nebulous role in Republic military hierarchy, but they still had one, even if it seems to be making a general out of anyone holding a light saber.


The Jedi were integrated with the Republic government so thoroughly they were relied on as high-level go-to guys in multiple branches of service:

-Foreign Service, as diplomatic envoys
-Secret Service, as VIP protection
-intelligence service, as field assets gathering intelligence
-military service, as leadership cadre *and* commandos, on land, air, sea and space
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby John_in_Longview » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:50 pm

Darrell wrote:Will Luke Skywalker be revealed to be the Vaderesque head bad guy in the latest SW installment?


My personal theory is that the bad guy is a clone of either Luke or Leia.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby skb12172 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:28 pm

Ah, like the clone Luuke, in Heir To The Empire.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby dfwmtx » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:47 pm

The bad guy is Darth Jar-Jar. He's taking none of your shit anymore because of all the jokes leveled at him after ep. 1-3.

I hope the midget they have rolling around in the ball that's the R2D2 stand-in gets paid well for his troubles.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Steamforger » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:07 pm

I'm only up on a couple series in the EU. Luke as a bad guy is laughable. He was always a bit of a "pussoir", as we would say.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Kommander » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:18 am

Greg wrote:
Jericho941 wrote:
Kommander wrote:Fun Fact: Since the Jedi are not part of any formal military command structure they are unlawful combatants. On the other hand the Sith, when they had their empire, integrated their force users into the command structure, therefore making them legitimate and legal combatants.


...according to the current LOAC established on a backwater planet in a galaxy far, far away. :P

Still, though, that's a bit of a stretch. With a Sith government it's more like a military dictatorship. The Jedi had some nebulous role in Republic military hierarchy, but they still had one, even if it seems to be making a general out of anyone holding a light saber.


The Jedi were integrated with the Republic government so thoroughly they were relied on as high-level go-to guys in multiple branches of service:

-Foreign Service, as diplomatic envoys
-Secret Service, as VIP protection
-intelligence service, as field assets gathering intelligence
-military service, as leadership cadre *and* commandos, on land, air, sea and space


I have to admit that I am pretty much only going by what I saw in the MMO The Old Republic and should have specified that. In other works they are likely better integrated. In the MMO it always seemed like the Jedi were a bunch of random guys with lightsabers, accountable to their own internal hierarchy, not to the government of the republic and certainly not the people. Even the Bounty Hunter at least exists inside a legal framework, which is more than I can say for the Smuggler. In the Lucas prequels they didn't seem much better, though at least Quo Gon Gin and Obi Won were "Ambassadors" at some point.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:43 pm

Kommander wrote:
Greg wrote:
Jericho941 wrote:
Kommander wrote:Fun Fact: Since the Jedi are not part of any formal military command structure they are unlawful combatants. On the other hand the Sith, when they had their empire, integrated their force users into the command structure, therefore making them legitimate and legal combatants.


...according to the current LOAC established on a backwater planet in a galaxy far, far away. :P

Still, though, that's a bit of a stretch. With a Sith government it's more like a military dictatorship. The Jedi had some nebulous role in Republic military hierarchy, but they still had one, even if it seems to be making a general out of anyone holding a light saber.


The Jedi were integrated with the Republic government so thoroughly they were relied on as high-level go-to guys in multiple branches of service:

-Foreign Service, as diplomatic envoys
-Secret Service, as VIP protection
-intelligence service, as field assets gathering intelligence
-military service, as leadership cadre *and* commandos, on land, air, sea and space


I have to admit that I am pretty much only going by what I saw in the MMO The Old Republic and should have specified that. In other works they are likely better integrated. In the MMO it always seemed like the Jedi were a bunch of random guys with lightsabers, accountable to their own internal hierarchy, not to the government of the republic and certainly not the people. Even the Bounty Hunter at least exists inside a legal framework, which is more than I can say for the Smuggler. In the Lucas prequels they didn't seem much better, though at least Quo Gon Gin and Obi Won were "Ambassadors" at some point.


The comparison point I would have is knights (on which the Jedi are verily loosely modeled). During the transition period between feudal and national armies you could have knights or other nobles who either served directly the sovereign or as allies to the sovereign under their own flag or be integrated into the Sovereign's army in various ways (in leadership positions or otherwise).

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby John_in_Longview » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:34 am

Steamforger wrote:I'm only up on a couple series in the EU. Luke as a bad guy is laughable. He was always a bit of a "pussoir", as we would say.


One of Lucas's original endings for Return of the Jedi had Luke taking over the empire after the death of the Emperor and his father.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby John_in_Longview » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:39 am

Spoiler! :
Looks like we were wrong....

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby George guy » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:31 am

With a face like that, I can understand wearing a mask.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Darrell » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:42 am

What? Was I right?
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby John_in_Longview » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:34 pm

Darrell wrote:What? Was I right?


Spoiler! :
No, not in the traditional sense. I was however disappointed in his actions/lack of actions, which I felt led to bad things happening. I am willing to see if the next movie (May 2017!) changes my mind.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Cybrludite » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:19 pm

George guy wrote:With a face like that, I can understand wearing a mask.

Spoiler! :
Professor Snapes in spaaaaaaace!
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby skb12172 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:45 pm

I saw it last night. Typical Abrams, mimicking someone else's work. I thought it was silly and while watchable, not worth the $20 I spent for 3D IMAX.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Mike OTDP » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:15 pm

Haven't seen it yet. Did Abrams make as much as a hash of SW as he did with Star Trek? What he did with that franchise was obscene.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby skb12172 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:09 am

No, but I do not agree with the direction in which he went. Very unoriginal.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby toad » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:13 am

Image

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby kapikui » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:57 pm

I rather enjoyed Ep VIII, but I'm not entirely sure I didn't watch Ep. IV

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby JustinR » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:42 am

I think it's official now: he shall forever be known as Jar-Jar "Rerun" Abrams. It's really too bad, it was like half the movie was well planned out, and the rest was filled in with stock footage from Episode IV. The more my wife and I talked about it on the drive home, the more disappointed we became.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Jericho941 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:59 am

I'm withholding judgement until I can actually see it, but Abrams cannot film close combat to save his life, and giving him control of a franchise that features friggin' laser sword fights as one of its most distinctive features is kinda stupid.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby George guy » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:44 am

Jericho941 wrote:I'm withholding judgement until I can actually see it, but Abrams cannot film close combat to save his life, and giving him control of a franchise that features friggin' laser sword fights as one of its most distinctive features is kinda stupid.


By that logic, maybe they should have gone with Gore Verbinski (Pirates of the Caribbean).
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby toad » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:02 am

For some fight scenes see the 1973 version of the "Three Musketeers." Look especially for the fight scene on frozen water and ground. A person that I knew who had studied Medieval and Renaissance fighting while in college said the movie had the most realistic fight scenes.
Oliver Reed got to do some really wild stuff with his sword in that movie. I wanted to do some wild stuff with Raquel Welch.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby dfwmtx » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:44 pm

Ok, before I saw the movie it was merely an annoyance, but after I've seen the movie it's starting to be a bane to existence. I'm getting sick of all the non-associated product advertising for Star Wars going on. Why the fuck does a car commercial need to have a Star Wars tie-in? Fast food, I get. Toys, I get. But there are no cars, trucks, or SUVs in Star Wars, so YTF does this have to be? All this makes me want to shove a light-saber up the waste chutes of several advertising folks, from executive level on down.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby toad » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:50 pm

I think I smell a whiff of fear and desperation from Hollywood as money from movie production drops. So they may be milking associated products to squeeze every possible coin before it gets hard to get financing to make a movie.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Mike OTDP » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:18 am

toad wrote:For some fight scenes see the 1973 version of the "Three Musketeers." Look especially for the fight scene on frozen water and ground. A person that I knew who had studied Medieval and Renaissance fighting while in college said the movie had the most realistic fight scenes.

Yup. This and "The Four Musketeers" have the best rapier work ever filmed.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby MiddleAgedKen » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:40 pm

Fight director for The Three Musketeers is a gent named William Hobbs. Also The Four Musketeers, Robin and Marian, The Duellists, Excalibur, Brazil, and The Crimson Permanent Assurance :) , among others.

I have to agree that the fight choreography in The Three Musketeers/Four Musketeers is as good as it gets, but I also remain very fond of the more "stagy" fights in the Jose Ferrer version of Cyrano de Bergerac and the Tony Curtis/Ross Martin duel in The Great Race.

Incidentally, Hobbs did the fight directing for the 1990 version of Cyrano, but Gerard Depardieu is a shambling oaf and Anthony Burgess's translation is inferior anyway.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Aesop » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:15 pm

William Hobbs is a swordmastery god. Period. (And yes, The Three/Four Musketeers is his opus; they were shot as one movie, split by the producers into two movies.)

As for the flick...meh. I give it a 6 on a 10 pt. scale.
All the moments from IV, and all the tease with no payoff from V.
Also entirely too weak to stand on its own, and barely in the Top 5 of the seven movies so far.
And Lucas still has his $6B.

Worse, it just makes it screamingly obvious that the movies you wanted more were: what happened between III and IV, and now, what happened between VI and VII. (And what happened between The Last Crusade and The Temple of the Crystal WTF? while we're at it.)

They should have given this to Peter Jackson. (Still the only guy in all Hollywood history to make three good and successful movies in the same franchise, evah. Even Coppola couldn't do that with Godfather.)
Abrams is a one-hit wonder, and if this is his best, take the next one away from him before he Sam Mendes' the next one in his underpants, or pulls out another Beyond Darkness utterly shitastic snake-eating-its-tail fucked up remake.

There is a gleaming plus here:
Seth Green and the crew at Robot Chicken will have work off of this one for years. :lol:

And holy crypt-keeper, the worst face in the movie wasn't the villain, it was this one:
Spoiler! :
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby blackeagle603 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:58 pm

Yeah, well you guys clearly have too high expectations. I kept 'em low and enjoyed it with dear wife and a couple of the daughters. The Village Theater in Coronado is an excellent venue. Excellent Art Deco restoration/with updates, good seats, loads of legroom.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Aesop » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:14 pm

It's been ten years.
They had one job... :roll:
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby dfwmtx » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:39 pm

OK, so which is the bigger reboot rape of your childhood memories: Star Trek or Star Wars?
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby JustinR » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:17 am

dfwmtx wrote:OK, so which is the bigger reboot rape of your childhood memories: Star Trek or Star Wars?


Here's the thing: Jar-Jar Abrams biggest sin is the fact that he can't write an original f-ing script. I think he's confused the word "reboot" with "plagiarism." Once I realized that he was totally ripping off Wrath of Kahn, badly, I stopped enjoying the movie and was pulled out of the storytelling. The same thing happened with The Force Awakens. Once I realized he was totally ripping off A New Hope, very badly, I stopped enjoying it and just thought, "YHGTBFKM, ANOTHER Death Star???"

In addition, Jar-Jar left out some of the most important storytelling of the movie, details that I think would have left a far better impression of the movie in my mind:

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/21/10634568/ ... irst-order
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Weetabix » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:06 pm

Mike OTDP wrote:
toad wrote:For some fight scenes see the 1973 version of the "Three Musketeers." Look especially for the fight scene on frozen water and ground. A person that I knew who had studied Medieval and Renaissance fighting while in college said the movie had the most realistic fight scenes.

Yup. This and "The Four Musketeers" have the best rapier work ever filmed.

I found these two movies used on Amazon and ordered them. 105 minutes and 108 minutes.

Cue up popcorn and a tired butt for this weekend. :lol:
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Aesop » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:18 pm

Dear heavens, you haven't seen these two cinematic epics??

Lay in a stock of snacks and beverages, and watch them TNT-style: beginning to end, repeated over and over!
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby George guy » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:58 pm

The biggest stupid in the film, IMO, was:

Spoiler! :
The good guys being able to get Starkiller Base's shields shut down just by holding Captain Gold Stormtrooper Lady at gunpoint.

Seriously. The First Order's ultimate weapon (so far) can have its defenses taken down by one person logging in and hitting a few buttons under duress.

You would think at the very least, it would require some sort of two-simultaneous-keys deal.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Kommander » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:44 am

I have avoided this thread, not wanting to spoil the movie or go into it with any preconceptions, and have to say that I agree with much of what had been written here. It's a competently made movie that fails to do anything interesting or original with the star wars premise. I actually think they would have been better off if they had gone the Old Republic route and just done a totally original story with totally original characters.

While were on the subject of lack of originality did anyone else think that Kilo whatshis face (never a good sign when I cant remember the main bad guys name an hour after the movie) costume looks extremely similar to Revans from KOTOR? I don't know if this is a coincidence (I doubt it), a reference from KOTOR, or Abrams lifting old ideas because hes got no new ideas for the bad guys look.

Spoiler! :
Lastly I think that Kylo Revan needs to get his money back from whoever thought him light saber combat as he got his ass kicked by someone who had never used one before.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby blackeagle603 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:06 am

yeah well, maybe not so bad if she turns out to be Obi Wan's grand daughter or something.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Jered » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:26 am

Kommander wrote:While were on the subject of lack of originality did anyone else think that Kilo whatshis face (never a good sign when I cant remember the main bad guys name an hour after the movie) costume looks extremely similar to Revans from KOTOR? I don't know if this is a coincidence (I doubt it), a reference from KOTOR, or Abrams lifting old ideas because hes got no new ideas for the bad guys look.


Wait...wasn't Revan the good guy after a heel face turn?
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Steamforger » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:33 am

Devil's advocate here-

Once I realized that he was totally ripping off Wrath of Kahn


I interpreted this in a Doctor Who, fixed point of time way. No matter the reboot, there was ALWAYS going to be someone getting irradiated in that chamber and someone yelling "KHANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN." The rebooting may have changed who, exactly, did what, but the events will still be present and relevant.

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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby dfwmtx » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:48 pm

blackeagle603 wrote:yeah well, maybe not so bad if she turns out to be Obi Wan's grand daughter or something.


Close, I'm betting she's Luke daughter.

How I suspect opening of Ep.8 will go....

Luke: Rey, I am your father!"
Rey: why the hell did you leave me on that desert planet for years?!
L: hey, it happened to me when I was a kid! And look how I turned out.
R: What? A lonely old Jedi with a high midichlorian count and father-abandonment issues?
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Weetabix » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:43 pm

Aesop wrote:Dear heavens, you haven't seen these two cinematic epics??

Lay in a stock of snacks and beverages, and watch them TNT-style: beginning to end, repeated over and over!

The Duellists arrived today.
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Re: Is Luke The Bad Guy?

Postby Aesop » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:27 pm

Good times.
Watch it on the biggest, highest def monitor you have.
It was Ridley's Scott's first flick, done essentially on credit cards, and you can tell he was a still photog before he was a film director; nearly every frame looks like a master's portrait.
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