Shotgun under rifle

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thatguy

Shotgun under rifle

Postby thatguy » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:52 pm

I was reading Chris' blog post titled The Right Weapon for the job and the part about shotguns sort of stood out for me.

We need a short barreled (14-16"), 4-6 shot, 12ga pump shotgun with a pistol grip and effective folding or telescoping stock. This weapon should be modular in nature, and be able to be dismounted from it's stock and underslung on the basic assault rifle with the proper bracket.

speedloader compatible.


I don't really get the idea of putting a shotgun under a rifle. Could someone explain this and provide a few examples?

There is a such thing as a speed loader for a shotgun?

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby 1991A1 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:22 pm

I own an AK and a 590. If I was busting through doors in Bad Guy town I would want the 590. While making my way through the streets to get to the Bad Guy door I would want the AK. This device would allow me the comfort and capability of both.

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby First Shirt » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:12 pm

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby thatguy » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:41 am

Thank you for the information.

Oh and here's the full bullet point


I cut it up intentionally. I've got a thing about using entire quotes.

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby SeekHer » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:14 am

Just slightly off topic but could you post your pictures of the Pelosi Heart Attack shotgun that you made up...thanks...
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby JAG2955 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:33 pm

Ask, and ye shall receive!

I've heard that they're in testing, I'm hoping to find one with a stand-alone stock in the sandbox for my team.

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby 308Mike » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:21 am

I think he was talking about Chris' Feinstein Memorial Assault Shotgun:

Image
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby workinwifdakids » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:39 am

How do those shotgun speedloaders work?
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Spells » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:39 am

308Mike wrote:I think he was talking about Chris' Feinstein Memorial Assault Shotgun:

Image

Legal in Chicago!

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby SeekHer » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:21 pm

CByrneIV wrote:Shotgun Speedloader

The utility of an underslung shotgun is in doorbusting; both in blowing a lock (like the masterkey), and in clearing rooms. I'd certainly rather have an underslung shotgun indoors than a grenade launcher.


Chris, we had the grenade launcher under the M16 as well as the M79 "Blooper" guns and at that time there were a number of different shells available for them...white phosphorous (WP), illuminating flare (IF), high explosive (HP), anti-personnel (AP) and a shotshell loaded with I believe 00 buck which was designed for bunker clearing and such...

The trouble with them was in getting off a second shot if necessary so the guys would always transition to their auto rifles but even that took time to accomplish...Those of us who had Uzis just did the house clearing while the M16s were for perimeter defense...We would rotate the guns so that one wasn't always doing the dirty jobs...

It was a simple procedure, house clearing...two guys, one on either side of the door, one would kick in the door and both would throw grenades into the room and after the explosions go in high and low and shoot anything still standing...It would nothing for each of us to be carrying ten or twelve grenades and six to eight extra mags…

Thankfully, the Arabs didn’t do any booby trapping (to any great extent) like the Germans and Russians of WW2 did or the Viet Cong but then again they really didn’t have the time to as the Israelis also used the German Blitzkrieg method of assault and in most cases they were too stupid to do the work necessary…How an army can be trained when 40 to 50% of their force is completely illiterate is beyond me and my hat again goes off to Mikhail Timofeevich for designing a firearm that even they could use…

If the shotgun was a semi auto it might work but a pump obviously wouldn't...The problems I could foresee would be in the positioning of the gun for firing unless they would be trained to use their left hand on the trigger of the under slung shotgun…It would seem to me the only feasible way of doing it…
There is a certain type of mentality that thinks if you make certain inanimate objects illegal their criminal misuse will disappear!

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Support the J P F O to "Give them the Boot"!!

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Combat Controller » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:29 am

That is how I was trained to clear a room too SH. Now a days it is not PC to just grenade a room....
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Aaron » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:31 am

CombatController wrote:That is how I was trained to clear a room too SH. Now a days it is not PC to just grenade a room....


Oh, I dunno about that. Sure, we're to use flashbangs usually, but it's amazing how often you can 'grab the wrong grenade' when the situation coincidentally calls for it.
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby randy » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:04 pm

Maybe SeekHer can confirm/deny this.

Heard a story during the Israeli ops in Lebanon in the early 80's. To keep amount of civilian casualties down, they threw grenades with the fuses removed into a room/house in areas where the PLO "heroes" were hiding among the population. The theory was supposedly that PLO types would recognize it and unass there pronto. The civies who's house it was would not and would stay in place.

Assault troops would then shoot anyone leaving the room or that took cover in a militarily trained fashion and leave anyone else standing and staring at the thing that came flying into the room alone.

Pick up the dud, lather, rinse, repeat.

Again, this is RUMINT (Rumor Intelligence).
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Windy Wilson » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:12 am

You know, some of the shorthand I've learned from you guys is really high speed, low drag trick stuff. I like "Unass the place". Another, and I can't attribute it properly, is "got inside his oowtf loop :o (in reference to a bad guy getting surprised non-lethally in mid operation).
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Aglifter » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:39 am

You mean the OODA Loop?
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby SeekHer » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:22 am

randy wrote:Maybe SeekHer can confirm/deny this.

Heard a story during the Israeli ops in Lebanon in the early 80's. To keep amount of civilian casualties down, they threw grenades with the fuses removed into a room/house in areas where the PLO "heroes" were hiding among the population. The theory was supposedly that PLO types would recognize it and unass there pronto. The civies who's house it was would not and would stay in place.

Assault troops would then shoot anyone leaving the room or that took cover in a militarily trained fashion and leave anyone else standing and staring at the thing that came flying into the room alone.

Pick up the dud, lather, rinse, repeat.

Again, this is RUMINT (Rumor Intelligence).


Never heard of it being done but have heard about in many different but similar scenarios...Most likely would have happened during the Lebanon War then elsewhere and I was back by then...

One, I know from first hand having been there, was you throw a grenade into the room with the pin still in...If inside tries to throw it back but by first pulling the pin (military training) it exploded as the timer had been cut down to a half second fuse...Guilt by association, death by superior intelligence...If nothing happened we'd just walk in, alert of course, but it was usually women, old men and kids...

One reason I've never heard of it was that the Fedayim, the terror boys, local militia etc. were first illiterate and secondly stupid and thirdly, but most importantly, they almost never had any training of any kind...Remember this was back in the early seventies before all the various factions started training...

Terrorist Course 101
Here is a gun (AK47), this is the trigger, pull trigger till no more bang--end of instruction...didn't tell them to return to cover or to come back to the leader and have him put a new mag in because they didn't know how to change them...

They'd pop out, let go a full 30 round mag, 2 in the dirt, 4 in the wall 10 feet from you and the rest in the air at which time you just aimed and shot the stupid, ignorant, lied to, believer…How anybody can believe that bullshit is beyond me—I mean the literate, living in the Western World ones, but there were hundreds and thousands of these chanting “zombies” that it got to the point that killing them was no fun…Keep one of us on over watch, let the rug riders blast away and if there happened to be a smart one in the group and did something half fast threatening, he’d get wasted but we just didn’t bother with the other ones…

The truly, absolutely scariest ones were the true believers, the zealots, the ones who’ll charge you wearing a suicide vest or worse were the ones who’d grab a grenade and come running at you, but didn’t know to pull the pin, but you shot them, just in case they remembered later…How they can put vests on woman and children, send them forward and have them detonated the charge…They’d also send people forward, wearing the vest but it was only rigged to be detonated from afar…you’d have shot the wearer but when you came to examine the body they’d set off the explosive charge—so we RPG’d them instead of shooting them…Quicker, safer and achieved the same results and used their own ammo on them
There is a certain type of mentality that thinks if you make certain inanimate objects illegal their criminal misuse will disappear!

Damn the TSA and Down with the BATF(u)E!
Support the J P F O to "Give them the Boot"!!

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby mekender » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:28 am

so were you in the IDF or what?
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Combat Controller » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:26 am

Aglifter wrote:You mean the OODA Loop?


LOL, no, it was "Observe, Orient, WHAT THE FUCK!"
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Whirlibird » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:36 am

CByrneIV wrote:Shotgun Speedloader

The utility of an underslung shotgun is in doorbusting; both in blowing a lock (like the masterkey), and in clearing rooms. I'd certainly rather have an underslung shotgun indoors than a grenade launcher.

Oh and here's the full bullet point:

We need a short barreled (14-16"), 4-6 shot, 12ga pump shotgun with a pistol grip and effective folding or telescoping stock. This weapon should have tritium ghost ring sights. This weapon should be modular in nature, and be able to be dismounted from it's stock and underslung on the basic assault rifle with the proper bracket. It would be a plus if the weapon were fed by a detachable quick change magazine (box or tube), but that isn't absolutely necessary; however if there is no quick change, it should be at least six shot, and speedloader compatible.


I seem to recall a Remington 870 advert in a LE magazine recently that had a package 870 with a conventional riot length barrel, a 10.5(?)" barrel and IIRC a Pachmayr pistol grip. As well as a conventional stock and other accessories in the hard case.

I'm still trying to understand the reasoning for hanging a shotgun under an AR.
The usual M-4 is already unweildy with all the lights and garbage that most people (especially the military) are hanging on it. Any extra weight makes it cumbersome and in a house clearing you do not want to slow your weapon down any.

Personally If I have to have a folder, I'd rather have a Knoxx Cop-Stocked 870 with the short barrel and the tritium dot. Maybe the Pachmayr foreend, maybe.
Stick it in a cross the back pouch (scabbard) and on a single point sling affixed to the rear of the receiver.
That way the weapon can be slung as to drop at the right side if needed, but not so far that the muzzle hits the ground.

At the distances and locations the shotgun would be employed, the sights are almost superfluous.
Having a removeable stock in a battlezone or even a patrol car is almost a guarantee that it will either get lost or left somewhere when it's needed.

And the 6 round capacity would guarantee that the scattergun portion of the combination weapon extended way past the usual muzzle, not a good thing. Sticking with a conventional 4 round magazine may not be cool but properly utilized it's just as fast to shoot and is ultimately more easily used in close confines with a short barrel.

As for a detachable magazine on it, another magazine to keep track of and possibly grab when you're trying to get an AR mag or vice versa is not a good idea.
I have yet to see an effective and practical scattergun speedloader that doesn't lug down an already overburdened LEO or GI with something that takes up more room than it needs to.

I again can't see the use/need for an attached scattergun, when the separate weapon is much more effectively used and handled. And it can be handed to someone else without having to dismount or attach anything and be fully ready for use. Just hand them the 'bag o' buck' and keep going.

Realistically, am I wrong here? I know what works for me and I do clear buildings with a disgusting regularity but I'm always willing to learn something new.

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby workinwifdakids » Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:36 am

...got inside his oowtf loop...


HA! I didn't think anyone noticed that, and didn't even remember I wrote it until you mentioned it. That was way back on the old forum, maybe the one before that. And yes, it was "Observe, Orient... WHAT THE FUCK!" I thought it was a good title for my book. The subtitle will be, "When Asymmetrical Warfare Goes Wrong."
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Fender Ketchup » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:53 am

Whirlibird wrote:I seem to recall a Remington 870 advert in a LE magazine recently that had a package 870 with a conventional riot length barrel, a 10.5(?)" barrel and IIRC a Pachmayr pistol grip. As well as a conventional stock and other accessories in the hard case.


Ah, the 870 Modular Combat Shotgun kit. It comes/came with the Pachmayr pistol grip, a pistol grip stock, 10", 14" and 18.5" barrels, tube extenders to match the barrels, and a bracket for underslinging it on an AR/M4.

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Jered » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:28 am

They do make buckshot rounds for the 203.
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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Whirlibird » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:52 am

Jered wrote:They do make buckshot rounds for the 203.


Military, Police and Destructive device holders only. M-203 = 40mm

37mm for everyone else. Gas, bean bag, practice and flare rounds are the most "common".

And the 203 stinks to lug around compared to the old M-79.

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Re: Shotgun under rifle

Postby Jered » Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:09 am

Whirlibird wrote:
Jered wrote:They do make buckshot rounds for the 203.


Military, Police and Destructive device holders only. M-203 = 40mm

37mm for everyone else. Gas, bean bag, practice and flare rounds are the most "common".

And the 203 stinks to lug around compared to the old M-79.


It would be one hell of an under barrel shotgun, though.
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